D&D 4E Women in 4E

[Moonshade]

Can you imagine a module where the men were described in the way women were in STAP? "You enter the room to see Commander Anton discussing strategy with his officers. He moves from map to war table with a combination of grace and barely contained power in his muscled frame. The tousled disarray of his dark locks gives an impression of boyish charm, until the steel of his blue gray eyes locks onto you. Through the loosened laces of his tunic a few wisps of chest hair escape...."

Heh, he sounds Harlequin hot enough, boyish charm and all. But purple prose can bad for both female and male characters:

Every male eye below turned toward her. The lady was daring indeed, to come as an outlawed, evil being, wearing little more than a pair of gleaming black buttock-high boots, with silver heel spikes, and elbow-length gloves of the same material. Her breasts and loins were covered by little more than crisscrossing leather straps hung with spindle-shaped rock crystal stones, and a black ribbon encircled her throat. Her hair reached to the backs of her knees in a magnificent, raven-dark sweep that was bound in a cage of silver chain ending in two delicate chains, little larger than glittering threads, that hung in loops attached to the spurs of her boots. Two tiny bells hung from pointed silver medallions glued to her nipples, and she wore a calm, crooked smile that broadened as the man known as Dauntless swept up to her and proffered his arm. As she turned to display herself to him, the two gaping cousins saw that a walnut-sized diamond bulged glitteringly from her navel, and that a tiny sculpted dagger hung point downward from the cluster of diamonds and silver scrollwork at her loins.

The cousins turned as one to stare at the speaker – and emitted identical gasps of hungry awe. The object of their attention was a man whose fine features were adorned rather than ruined by a finely upswept mustache, its chestnut magnificence overwhelmed by the curly sweep of hair that must have reached to the man’s waist, but was bound up in a scarlet ribbon to keep it clear of the spotless green shoulders of his elegant, festive jacket. He was lean and lithe beneath the devastatingly simple lines of his garb. From the lace at his wrists to that at his throat, every curve of his form betrayed sleek strength and flaring ready muscle. As for his gray silken breeches, with their discreet codpiece – why, the tight bottom they displayed to the world as he bowed and turned to leave them made both cousins gasp again, then swallow… then turn to each other to share an incredulously delighted squeal.

Examples from the Forgotten Realms novel Silverfall. The woman's outfit is unbelievably impractical, but some might still see it as having fetish appeal. The man, though... chestnut mustache and long curly hair, scarlet/green/gray clothing, discreet codpiece - I'd guess that if this was an adventure he'd inspire more laughter than hungry awe in women players.

 

[wgreen]

Know what you get almost always for orcs? "Black". Because apparently "black" is an accent.

Wow. I've never encountered this before. My usual experience with the orc accent is either "caveman" or "Klingon."

-Will

 

[GreatLemur]

Things are definitely better (in RPGs in general and D&D in particular) than they used to be. They could also definitely be better than they are.

I really, REALLY don't want realistic pictures of sweaty beaten adventurers to appear in my books very often. They're fantasy heroes, that would be a bit too much brutal realism. I want characters that I want to be, poster children for the lifestyle of goblin-slaying and treasure-taking. They should all be beautiful, glamorous, powerful, and generally everything we all wish we were.

I think that the characters portrayed in RPG art should be awesome, interesting, and inspiring. That doesn't always mean pretty, though. Not by a long shot.

I think a lot of folks would agree that Tyrion Lannister, Brienne of Tarth, and Sandor Clegane are some of the most impressive characters in A Song of Ice and Fire--a series full of impressive characters--and the first one's a mildly-deformed dwarf (that is, a human dwarf), the second is a huge and ugly woman, and the third is a guy with a severely burned face. They are all freaking awesome.

 

[Wormwood]

Wow. I've never encountered this before. My usual experience with the orc accent is either "caveman" or "Klingon."

Klingon here as well.

(although I've discovered that my half-orcs tend to be Boris Badenov mixed with Triumph the Insult Comic Dog)

But I have never heard racist orc-speech. Downright creepy.

 

[Nifft]

My usual experience with the orc accent is either "caveman" or "Klingon."

I use Klingon. Green, lumpy, violent, ridiculously designed exotic slashing weapon -- it's a Klingon.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Erik, I tried contacting your Art Director and got no reply.

Didn't you read his post? They only hire perverts as artists.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Irda Ranger]

As my totally anecdotal contribution to the thread, my wife had to sort through a lot of fantasy art before finding a picture for her current character that fit her criteria of: rogue/assassin type, dressed practically, less-than-D-cup boobs.

 

[Moonshade]

However, should you want skimpy male armor, or to pull an example from WoW, an incubus instead of a succubus, and you can almost hear the bile creeping up their throats.

I don't play WOW but that sounds familiar. The community had some kind of argument about succubi?

Well, except for the men being more clean-shaven on the Harlequin romance covers, and swords (if present) tending more to the rapier end of the spectrum rather than the two-hander, I see very little difference between the two. Yaoi anime aesthetics -- if it can be called that -- has a lot with peculiarities in Japanese aesthetic sense: namely, that muscles are ugly, so most characters in those pieces are thin rather than burly.

The problem is, what kind of artwork does appeal to the female viewers? Rather than making a sweeping generalisation, which is just on the tip of my tongue but I'd rather spare myself the heartache, I'd like to invite our fellow female boardies to chime in...

Those who dare might want to check out this page that has the results of contests where romance readers voted for their favourite covers. I've found it a useful enough link in past conversations about What Women Want, Visually, though of course there are a lot of women who dislike romance novel covers.

I can only make generalisations too, based on my own preferences and those of my friends, but I think the key is in trying to convey a sense of charm. Screaming bodybuilders attacking orcs aren't going to be seen as sexy by a lot of women. The swashbuckler who might or might not be showing off decently muscled abs and has that classic roguish smile is going to be more popular (think of how many female fans the Jack Sparrow character has). Facial expressions are important.

ETA: It's easier to make your hero good-looking if you want the reader to like him/her, but as A Song of Ice and Fire shows a good writer can make even ugly characters fan favourites with enough development. Tyrion, probably the most popular character, has his wit and underdog status, Sandor has his fighting skill and attitude, and Brienne, while IMO much less of an overall fandom favourite than the other two, appeals to me personally as an example of goodness in a brutal world (a "point of light", to say it in 4E terms).

 

[Klaus]

Didn't you read his post? They only hire perverts as artists.

Cheers, -- N

Dude...

I post at Circvs Maximvs.

You know that.

 

[Cadfan]

Those who dare might want to check out this page that has the results of contests where romance readers voted for their favourite covers. I've found it a useful enough link in past conversations about What Women Want, Visually, though of course there are a lot of women who dislike romance novel covers.

Actually, if you go to that page, the majority of the contest winning covers do not feature "clinch" poses. (That page taught me a new word!) There's also a link to a debate regarding the clinch cover, and its appropriateness. Seems the new wave of romance novels is moving away from it.

My quick estimate is that less than 20% of the covers feature a heavily muscled guy without a shirt. And this is on erotica, which logically should be more sexual than D&D artwork of women.