D&D 4E Women in 4E

[Wik]

Point #1: There's also a lot of swords. I think D&D is encouraging violence through the images! People with swords! Oh no! Our children are being brainwashed to stab people!

Point #2: If I was going to demographically aim a book at a feminine stereotype in classic Marketing Wiz style, I would have it be about celebrities, fashion, and weight loss, because that's what sells!. If it popped up on Oprah, it'd be the best seller in the world inside of a week.

More than half the books also depict horrible things from alien dimensions, who, exactly, are those books aimed at?

I don't quite get what you're trying to say. The OP's point was that the image of women is, in some ways, derogatory. Using a fairly common example, I tried to show that women are generally shown to be less "realistic" than men. That, really, these books are aimed towards men, and that's not something I'd like to see.

I really don't get what you mean about Celebrities and what not? If you're suggesting that would be the best way to market a book towards women... well, I don't think so. Really, your argument confuses me. Sorry.

As for the horrible images? Keep 'em coming. That's a great part of the game. But have you noticed that when there's a woman/female creature in the game, there's a tendency to make it pretty or sexual, and that standard doesn't always apply to males? Look at the Fiendish Codex, for example. Even mariliths and Lilitus, these demonic women, have these great bodies, and tend to show a lot more skin (and be a lot more shapely), than, say, Bar-lguras.

One point that is often missed in these discussions is that a woman can be hot without impractical skimpy clothing. "chainmail bikinis vs ugly characters" is a false dichotomy. Any artist who can't make a female character look good without turning her into a cheesecake model shouldn't be illustrating.

I'd also like to see some non-hot women in the art once in a while, though. And not just disfigured evil hags, but more or less plain women who don't spend hours a day curling their hair and putting on makeup while camping in a freakin' dungeon.

I agree 100%.


And Erik, I'm sorry for picking on Paizo there. I really don't think Paizo is any better/worse than the rest of the industry. I just went for DRAGON because it was what I had close at hand.

I should also add that, hypocritical as it may be, I like the Seoni picture the most.

 

[Rechan]

One point that is often missed in these discussions is that a woman can be hot without impractical skimpy clothing. "chainmail bikinis vs ugly characters" is a false dichotomy. Any artist who can't make a female character look good without turning her into a cheesecake model shouldn't be illustrating.

Case in point:

She's got a real haunting, ethereal beauty to her that I just dig.

But really, one of the points that came up in the thread I started, a point I thought was very good, was this:
Chainmail Bikini Syndrome is just plain wrong when it is impracticable. A fighter in a platemail that has a huge gap in the chest, with unarmored thighs, is an idiot. Those are huge targets with vulnerable arteries that, if striked, would cause you to bleed out. It makes about as much sense as Edgar the paladin walking out with a chestplate that's split down the front to show off his impressive abs.

Put the revealing clothing on the barbarian, mage, or thief; they rely less on armored covering, so it makes sense that they might be a bit revealing out of utility or flair (See: 300 and its lack of ANY covering). But for the Armored Fighter to stroll around in armor that shows off her cleavage and thighs, that's ludicrous, because it calls to the fore "This is meant to show off my body, instead of preventing your sword from killing me".

I'd also like to see some non-hot women in the art once in a while, though. And not just disfigured evil hags, but more or less plain women who don't spend hours a day curling their hair and putting on makeup while camping in a freakin' dungeon.

Agreed.

 

[Wik]

KM: I can understand that view, and I appreciate it 100%. But what I *don't* like seeing is the fact that half-orcs and dwarves are only men. I think I've seen ONE picture of a female half-orc or dwarf in any wotc product, and that annoys me.

And the difference is in the fact that it seems like the second a woman puts on chainmail, it turns into the famous chainmail bikini, or something leaving all the vital areas open. I don't like that.

I'd much rather see a good-looking woman who isn't posing for the cover of some magazine. Or, barring that, I'd rather at least see males adhering to the same standard.

 

[Cadfan]

1) There's a big difference between a half naked male image designed to appeal to guys (see professional wrestling, generally) and a half naked male image designed to appeal to girls. Claiming that there's parity when an artist draws one image with a mostly naked warrior woman in a slave-girl pose and another with a He-Man lookalike is just plain silly.

2) There's a big difference between art of a hot woman designed to appeal to women and art of a hot woman designed to appeal to men. That this needs to be stated aloud is mind boggling.

3) Anecdotal stories of "this one gamer chick I know, yeah, she totally digs chain mail bikinis and slave girl seductress artwork" does not a refutation make.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Is that a DBZ joke?

No, it's not.

And incidentally, I think your "unable to find anything but a pic of Arnold Schwarzenegger" argument--with that single post--went into the tank.

 

[Teflon Billy]

3) Anecdotal stories of "this one gamer chick I know, yeah, she totally digs chain mail bikinis and slave girl seductress artwork" does not a refutation make.

But all that's being refuted is anecdotal evidence.

Can't accept one and disregard the other.

 

[Rechan]

No, it's not.

And incidentally, I think your "unable to find anything but a pic of Arnold Schwarzenegger" argument--with that single post--went into the tank.

I googled for "Male/Man Sexy Barbarian" + Fantasy, Half-naked, naked, and various combinations thereof. I was specifically looking for Buff, mostly naked and holding a sword.

 

[Dragonhelm]

Part of the problem is that artists are 100% perverts. Seriously. You wouldn't believe how hard we have to ramp them back sometimes.

And if I can ever find a copy of "Tika Takes a Bath," you bet I'm getting it!

But for those looking for newer representations of women in fantasy, I hope you've had a chance to check out Pathfinder Iconic Kyra.

Or perhaps you prefer elves.

For fans of the classic style, of course, there's always Seoni.

Erik, I'm really digging the iconics. I don't think that Seoni is "classic style." Yeah, she's eye candy, but she's also got a wild, tattoo look about her. I think she's one of the best representations of a sorcerer to date.

Kyra is cool, and while pretty, I kind of like that she isn't half-naked, just to show a different take.

That being said, I absolutely LOVE that rogue! Reminds me a bit of a female human swashbuckler that was in my game. I like the color, and I think that's much more of an elf than a certain other iconic. Speaking of which...

If Hennet can do those buckles, and Tordek can weave his beard, and Gimble can oil his beard, the least we can ask is for Mialee to do a little eyeshadow...

I disagree with the assessment that Mialee is a woman. That's a man, baby!

 

[Teflon Billy]

I googled for "Male/Man Sexy Barbarian" + Fantasy, Half-naked, naked, and various combinations thereof. I was specifically looking for Buff, mostly naked and holding a sword.

I just plonked "Barbarian" into google images and came out with these on the first page...

...which leads me to believe that, not only are the pictures you "couldn't find" easily, easily found, but they are in fact...the norm

 

[Glyfair]

Part of the problem is that artists are 100% perverts. Seriously. You wouldn't believe how hard we have to ramp them back sometimes.

An artist friend of mine once pointed out that he preferred to be assigned pictures of half-dressed women so he could arrange for half-dressed female models (often friends) to pose for them.

In all honesty, I have never seen a "Damsel in Distress" plot. Ever.

I've seen several. In absolutely none of them were the "Damsels in Distress" anything other than traps. It's an old cliche that has created a new cliche because no one wanted to use the old cliche.