D&D 5E yes, this again: Fighters need more non-combat options

[doctorbadwolf]

I get that. But for the OP, this came up because a particular player, who had earlier played a wizard, was envious of other people playing other classes.

The thing is, the Fighter class / chassis works very well for what is, but it also requires some buy-in if you want it to sing. Not everyone does that, and that's okay!

There are a lot of classes that I just don't feel like playing. Sometimes, the problem isn't the player, and it isn't the class- it's the combination. In my campaigns, I make sure to check in with everyone at 4th/5th level to see if they are having fun with the class. If they aren't, they can make a new, equivalent-level character.

It's usually easier to allow a player to play a class that is more closely suited to what they want it to be, than to remake the class. IMO.

I agree! I just also think that the character's concept may well have been best built as a fighter, but then the lack of interaction and exploration benefits sinks in over time. They probably don't want to play a different character, they just want the character concept they had to work.

For instance, the Battlemaster makes a great swashbuckler, in combat. If there were no swashbuckler rogue, or you're playing PHB only, that player either has to just accept not being that useful outside of combat/not being able to realize the full character concept even though it's not a complex or overwrought concept, or reflavor something like an Open Hand Monk. Bummer!

Why not just let Fighters have some situational shine in all three pillars, instead?

Because the fighter is somewhat supposed to be a blank slate for flavour, I think that deciding what exactly the fighter should be good at outside combat is a nontrivial exercise. I also think that no matter what direction you go in someone will inevitably disagree with you on if what you came up with feels "fighter-y". Given that here's how I would go about it.

To keep the fighter generic but also giving specific flavourful abilities we offer many different abilities to customize as you see fit. Offer a couple early and then gain more as you level up (a lot like warlock invocations, but keep it strictly non-combat). This may increase the complexity of the class a tad, but that's not something I necessarily care about.

Some samples of abilities:

When all you have is a hammer: You may substitute a weapon in place of a proper tool without penalty. For example using daggers as pitons

That'll do for now: You may spend 1 minute to make repairs to a broken, non-magical object. The object functions as normal for 1 hour, but has vulnerability to all damage. Once you repair an object in this manner you cannot do so again.

Work harder not smarter: You may push yourself to get advantage on all checks that use STR, DEX and CON for 1 hour. At the end of the hour you suffer 1 level of exhaustion.

Scary face: When you make an intimidation check you add a bonus equal to your CON modifier (min 1)

A way with words: After you spend 10 minutes talking with single individual you can attempt to charm them. They must make a WIS saving throw against a DC of 10 + your proficiency bonus + your Cha modifier or be charmed for 1 hour. If they succeed they are immune to this affect for 24 hours.

Those are fun, for sure.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

If someone has difficulty understanding how to have fun with a class, sometimes the best option is to ask them if they want to play a different class.

This. People who just want to hit things deserve a class option as well, don't kill their only option to fix something that's not broken.

 

[Satyrn]

I personally think that Fighters work best for two types of players:

A. The Lazy.
B. The Really Engaged.

I resemble that remark.

 

[Blue]

The Warlock and Bard have class abilities that make them better at certain social and exploration activities than another character with just the skill. The fighter base class has no such abilities.

Okay, Bards get Jack of all trades and more skills, I'll give you that. Warlock base class gets nothing to make them better then fighter at social and exploration activities. But both warlock and fighter get class features to spend which can grant them additional abilities, like the Beguiling Influence invocation or the Skilled feat.

If the warlock or fighter decide that they want to spend those to excel in a single pillar of play and ignore the other aspects, that's their call and not a sign those other aspects are weak and need propping up.

Everyone rushes with ASI/feat choices to an attack/spell ability score of 20, and combat feats. That's fine, but that's an intentional choice. And in a class like fighter which gives you several additional ones you can spread out and still be on the combat power curve, just like a Warlock might spend some invocations on things like Agonizing Blast, but then others spread out to other pillars.

There is one issue I see where CHR-focused characters have a natural advantage in the social pillar even without spending resources to improve. For that, using the Variant rule (PHB 175) allowing different ability scores with skills where it makes sense can help, where a STR fighter could perform a menacing feat of strength to intimidate, or a DEX fighter could take advantage of a situation where how well they dance could affect a persuasion check.

 

[jmartkdr]

Since fighters are kind of a vanilla class anyways, I'd probably look first to other aspects to add more flavor. For example, if you're playing a noble fighter, I'd look for a way to make you more noble than even a noble bard - somehow enhance what the background gives you, so you can really bring that too the forefront. Or maybe do something with race - make you more elf-y or something.

This is also a problem I'd address at a very individual level - each player will need different solutions.

 

[5ekyu]

I am taking full responsibility that I am beating a dead horse.

I am in the camp that Fighters could use something else in the social or exploration category. I won't die on a hill for it but I see the need.

Anyway, I'm bringing this up because during our last session, of the players said he felt like he didn't have much to do out of combat. While my bard and the warlock were sneaking and scouting, listening at doors, searching bookshelves, and translating tomes, he was looking for options to contribute. In another group we play in, this player is a wizard and feels like he has more versatility in and out of combat.

I know what the replies will be: use your background skills, role-play your character, you can skill use skills you aren't proficient in, etc. I get it, I really do. And I don't disagree. But that hasn't been enough to fully convince me Fighters wouldn't do well with something else.

So while I was looking at the PHB this morning, I had a thought: what if the Champion's Remarkable Athlete and the Battle Master's Know Your Enemy were part of the base Fighter progression?

First of all, that Remarkable Athlete is the 7th level Champion ability is ridiculous. It feels like a bad feat, or at least combined with the Athlete feat. I could also see any of the martial classes having access to an ability like this.

Second, Know Your Enemy is extremely iconic for the warrior archetype. Sizing up your opponent has many references in movies, literature, etc. It's also something unique to the fighter from the other classes.

These would give the base fighter an additional option in both the social and exploration areas.

Neither of these abilities is a "balance" issue in my mind per se. They do give the fighter more trinkets and I know one of the goals of the fighter is simplicity so I guess that could be a thing. *shrugs*

Anyway, just sharing some quick thoughts!

Not to likely be repetitive but... I tend to find the only characters who find nothing to do out of combat are the ones built and concieved without looking at ehst threy do outside of combat.

As GM I put up front before chargen that they should consider what they fo on their time off, for gun. On their downtime work - to pay bill. Whike travelling ... in combat etc.

Including just a single craft or tool somewhere in the myriad of options s playe CSN draw tom should open up a hook or two that the GM can use to seed "things to do."

A hobgoblin I play has chess and weaving... and uses them as a calming pastime- remarking on them as exemplars of order and precision and how they both allow him to regain his composure when the basic chaos of the eorld unsettles him.

Net result is that they not only provide me hooks to show his need for order (law?) but every place he goes he can look for clothiers, weavers, cloth, Styles etc or setup somewhere board out and look for games.

That could be any character of any race thru a good number of backgrounds- even a custom one.

In my experience the trap that leads to charsacters with nothing to do is seeing them first as a class.

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

So far I still haven't seen why the Warlock was a better stealther/scout then the fighter. That was what I asked before in regards to the OP talking about the Warlock and Bard scouting and the Fighter supposedly not being able to contribute. If said fighter didn't take stealth then he made a non scout. Did they have a low int too and not take investigation? Then of course they will be bad at it. That's a player choice to make a character not good at those things.

If the bard doesn't have expertise in stealth, then he isn't a better scout then said fighter. If said fighter is a plate wearer and low dex then of course he is a bad scout.

I'm not sure the fighter needs class features to be successful in non combat aspects of the game.

 

[Shiroiken]

While I wish they'd done the Fighter a bit different (Champion, Battlemaster, and Eldrich Knight really seem to cover almost every possible niche for the class), I don't feel that they need an out of combat ability built into the class. Most classes really don't have them either, unless the character spends resources (such as spells) to have them.

The player needs to be more assertive about doing things outside of combat. Just because they don't have good social skills doesn't mean that they should shut up during a social encounter (standard rules would have 1 character make a skill check with advantage for help). They could help search the bookshelves, sorting them into different stacks to make it easier for the intelligent characters to go through them. Scouting is admittedly out if the character wears certain armors, but that's the price they pay for the extra protection.

If you really feel that the fighter class NEEDS something for social skills, you could allow them to use Strength for Intimidation checks, showing off their powerful physique (and what they could do to those who oppose them). I'm not a fan of this, but I think it's something that could be added without too much imbalance.

 

[BookBarbarian]

A. The Lazy.
B. The Really Engaged..

This is pretty much exactly why I play Barbarians. I don't need to keep track of much beyond how many rages do I have left.