D&D 5E Classes Rated By Tier

Captain Panda · Nov 24, 2016

Hemlock said:
Their level 6 spells are a tiny bit weak compared to other spellcasters, so you could argue that they fall behind a little bit at levels 11 and 12... except that their overall package is still great at those levels.

The one weakness of Moon Druids is that they have no organic ranged combat capability. They pretty much always have to close with the enemy (in person or via summoned proxies) in order to destroy them. So in a campaign which consisted entirely of fighting dragons in flight, Moon Druids would be a weak(ish) choice.

Call lightning isn't great burst, but it is solid sustained damage over time at range. Same for sunbeam. They aren't perfect options, but they're something. If a dragon comes and opts to never land, the druid still has options. If nothing else, he can just turn into an air elemental, fly up and punch the dragon in the nose.

Druids scale in power in a very odd way compared to other classes, with huge spikes of power and then slow declines, followed by another spike and decline. That said, even at their lower points, they're still always a very good choice to bring along. They have weaknesses, but suggesting that a cleric is better than the noble druid is laughable.

RCanine · Nov 25, 2016

Captain Panda said:
They have weaknesses, but suggesting that a cleric is better than the noble druid is laughable.

I think Wizards screwed up giving clerics heavy armor, personally. I think heavy armor makes them too complete. Cleric doesn't really have downsides, other than perhaps lacking extra attack.

Also, some of their low-level spells are insane: bless, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians are all fantastic; druid doesn't really have spells that compare.

Captain Panda · Nov 25, 2016

RCanine said:
I think Wizards screwed up giving clerics heavy armor, personally. I think heavy armor makes them too complete. Cleric doesn't really have downsides, other than perhaps lacking extra attack.

Also, some of their low-level spells are insane: bless, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians are all fantastic; druid doesn't really have spells that compare.

That's just false. I've DMed for clerics, and while those spells are all very good, druids do it better. Conjure animals beats all of the above. If you don't think so, I suspect you've never seen it in play. Eight giant poisonous snakes can, in the first round, outperform a fireball. They also give terrain control (opportunity attacks, spaces occupied) and soak hits. If an enemy uses a fireball to clear them, that's a fireball he has to center somewhere other than in your face, and if you surround the enemy with them, it would take two fireballs to clear them. Druid summons are simply the best, bar none, in the game. A conjuration wizard requires a minute to do a summon. Being able to summon a swarm at a moment's notice matches or exceeds anything comparable the cleric can do at the same point.

But wait, you say clerics have better armor? Too true, they're harder to hit. Let's assume that we have two level six characters, one is a cleric and the other a druid. We'll assume the cleric is in plate with a shield. AC 20, that's very solid, I won't lie. The druid doesn't have the same AC (granted, they aren't too shabby either, studded leather and a shield with good dex gets you to 19), but we'll give that point to the clerics. In contrast, a druid can, twice per short rest, turn into the Loch Ness Monster for a free 68 hit points... twice. The cleric does not have the short rest resource that comes even close to comparing to that. So even if we were to assume the spells themselves were stronger, a dubious assumption at best, the combination of excellent concentration spells combined with wild shape would easily make druids are least equal to clerics, if not simply better.

Also, conjuring woodland beings. A DM will only make the mistake of letting you select what comes out when you cast it one time. #PixiesWin

Zardnaar · Nov 25, 2016

Captain Panda said:
That's just false. I've DMed for clerics, and while those spells are all very good, druids do it better. Conjure animals beats all of the above. If you don't think so, I suspect you've never seen it in play. Eight giant poisonous snakes can, in the first round, outperform a fireball. They also give terrain control (opportunity attacks, spaces occupied) and soak hits. If an enemy uses a fireball to clear them, that's a fireball he has to center somewhere other than in your face, and if you surround the enemy with them, it would take two fireballs to clear them. Druid summons are simply the best, bar none, in the game. A conjuration wizard requires a minute to do a summon. Being able to summon a swarm at a moment's notice matches or exceeds anything comparable the cleric can do at the same point.

But wait, you say clerics have better armor? Too true, they're harder to hit. Let's assume that we have two level six characters, one is a cleric and the other a druid. We'll assume the cleric is in plate with a shield. AC 20, that's very solid, I won't lie. The druid doesn't have the same AC (granted, they aren't too shabby either, studded leather and a shield with good dex gets you to 19), but we'll give that point to the clerics. In contrast, a druid can, twice per short rest, turn into the Loch Ness Monster for a free 68 hit points... twice. The cleric does not have the short rest resource that comes even close to comparing to that. So even if we were to assume the spells themselves were stronger, a dubious assumption at best, the combination of excellent concentration spells combined with wild shape would easily make druids are least equal to clerics, if not simply better.

Also, conjuring woodland beings. A DM will only make the mistake of letting you select what comes out when you cast it one time. #PixiesWin

That is at level 6 or so and thats the Druids relative apex of power (2-6 for Moon Druids).

Its goes downhill from there.

At level 11+ you start noticing it a lot, wildshape becomes not very good and Druid spellsare not as good as some of the domain spells or abilities clerics get. The cleric is better at fighting, healing, and domain powers vary. Druids are better at summoning and blowing stuff up but Sorcerers and Wizards are better at that. Summoned beasties also slow the game down, tend to annoy the other players and become semi useless at higher levels dying to AoEs, specail abilities or not being able to hurt anything due to not having magical attacks.

High level Druid abilites also do not play nice with the land Druid and Moon Druid wildshape gets weak at a few levels and the DM can often ignore them.

If I had a 1-5 scale Druids would be tier 2, the best Clerics and wizards would be tier 1.

Captain Panda · Nov 25, 2016

Zardnaar said:
That is at level 6 or so and thats the Druids relative apex of power (2-6 for Moon Druids).

Its goes downhill from there.

I disagree. It goes down, then up, then down, then back up. At 10 the druid can take the shape of an elemental, representing another peak in usefulness. Their 6 and 7 spells aren't as good, but then they peak again at 18 with the ability to cast as a mammoth or elemental, and are just ludicrous at 20. They're only beaten out by clerics if you cherry pick a couple of the levels where druids are at their lowest point in relative power.

RCanine · Nov 25, 2016

Captain Panda said:
That's just false. I've DMed for clerics, and while those spells are all very good, druids do it better. Conjure animals beats all of the above.

I could see conjure animals being good in some circumstances, but it's highly dependent on your DM being gracious. There's nothing preventing the DM from ruling 8 CR 1/4 or lower creatures are all CR zero because the spell is annoying, and like [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] said, they're also vulnerable to AoE and damage immunities.

The three spells I quoted remain relevant to varying degrees for the cleric's entire career and are not situational at all.

Your argument about AC is silly; with only 5 ASIs in their career, what Druid is going to spend 2-3 of them on Dex?

There are two other things Clerics get that druids don't that are worth mentioning:

* Extra Cantrip or attack damage scaling at level 8
* The ability to use a weapon and shield without Warcaster due to the emblem spell focus type

I disagree with Zard that Land druid's wild shape becomes useless, I think it lets the Druid use WS in exploration/social pillars instead; Moon Druid is stuck using WS for combat.

Personally I love druids, but I think they got the short end of the stick design-wise in 5E.

Ovarwa · Nov 25, 2016

Hi, I think that Moon Druids' value depends greatly on the campaign. Moon Druids are modal: * In normal mode, they get to cast spells and use magic items. * In wildshape mode, they get to use the abilities of their shape but almost never benefit from spells or items. Other characters usually have access to their entire suite all the time. Does the campaign have lots of magic items? Moon Druids suffer greatly compared to other casters. But as magic becomes more rare, Moon Druids are happy relative to other characters, and Moon Druids are an excellent choice when there are no magic items to be found. Is the campaign structured so that it is hard to predict which mode is better for the next hour or three? Wildshape is a limited resource, and Moon Druids will often find themselves in the wrong mode. In another vein, Moon Druids are especially vulnerable to GM fiat: What do you summon? What animals can you become? Overall, unless the campaign goes heavy on "we're in nature," I think Moon Druids aren't all that: They are full casters with a decent spell list but not awesome. They can do melee awesomely at some levels, but are usually a Big Tofu Block. Magic items are powerful, and Moon Druids use them worse than anyone else. I'm not saying they are bad. But they are second tier full-casters and third tier in melee, except for a few levels in which they are top notch in melee. That's a well-rounded package, to be sure. Anyway, Ken

Zardnaar · Nov 25, 2016

Moon Druid wild shaps are often sub optimal as well and being huge can do things like block the rest of your party so you are often restrained as to how you can use it or even worse hindering your own party.

At level 14 I noticed the Moon Druid was semi useless more often than not level 18 and 20 look good but you can more or less ignore them in wildeshape form as they are not that much of a threat and its pointless wailing on their buckets of hit points.

Turning into a elemental is useful at 10, gets less useful later on. My players are starting to use land Druids more or variant 3pp Druids such as the Elemental Druids and Circle of Life Druids from En5ider.

I would need to test out the moon druid again using the Tome of Battle and Volos dinosaurs to be fair.

Captain Panda · Nov 25, 2016

RCanine said:
I could see conjure animals being good in some circumstances, but it's highly dependent on your DM being gracious. There's nothing preventing the DM from ruling 8 CR 1/4 or lower creatures are all CR zero because the spell is annoying, and like @Zardnaar said, they're also vulnerable to AoE and damage immunities.

Well, technically true, but I don't think basing an argument on the notion that a DM can be a jerk and not allow you to use your abilities is a fair one. Even if it was, it cuts both ways. "Yeah, your God is in a mood today, your spell fizzled. Maybe you shouldn't have done that arguably evil thing back in town, mate. Paladine isn't digging it."

The three spells I quoted remain relevant to varying degrees for the cleric's entire career and are not situational at all.

They do. They're solid spells. Spike growth, goodberry, and conjure animals also remain relevant. Even if not for damage, terrain control and added damage soaking is an excellent use for summons.

Your argument about AC is silly; with only 5 ASIs in their career, what Druid is going to spend 2-3 of them on Dex?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I definitely think dex is worth pumping up.

There are two other things Clerics get that druids don't that are worth mentioning:

* Extra Cantrip or attack damage scaling at level 8
* The ability to use a weapon and shield without Warcaster due to the emblem spell focus type

Might be a decent point, but warcaster is always my first feat for the advantage on maintaining concentration.

Personally I love druids, but I think they got the short end of the stick design-wise in 5E.

I main a druid, and as much as I would enjoy getting a power boost... really, it isn't needed. We're strong enough as it is. Maybe a tad too strong. I've never seen a cleric reach the same level of combat effectiveness as a druid or a wizard in any of the campaigns I've DMed or played in.

FormerlyHemlock · Nov 25, 2016

Captain Panda said:
Call lightning isn't great burst, but it is solid sustained damage over time at range. Same for sunbeam. They aren't perfect options, but they're something. If a dragon comes and opts to never land, the druid still has options. If nothing else, he can just turn into an air elemental, fly up and punch the dragon in the nose.

Druids scale in power in a very odd way compared to other classes, with huge spikes of power and then slow declines, followed by another spike and decline. That said, even at their lower points, they're still always a very good choice to bring along. They have weaknesses, but suggesting that a cleric is better than the noble druid is laughable.

Turning into an air elemental is still a form of closing with the enemy. And it leads to bad things when the dragon knocks you out of wildshape.

You're right that druids do have some short-ranged spells like Call Lightning (120' IIRC), Produce Flame (30' range), Thorn Whip (30' IIRC), etc. But past that point they're reduced to plinking away with one attack per round on a longbow or crossbow--and they're not even proficient in crossbows/longbows!

In a campaign full of dragons in flight, Moon Druids will be relatively unhappy compared to e.g. Sharpshooter fighters. That doesn't make Moon Druids in any way a bad or weak class--in fact, the narrowness of the conditions ("a campaign full of dragons in flight") highlights the strength of the class. A DM has to go pretty far out of his way to make Moon Druids anything but a powerful pick.

Zardnaar said:
At level 14 I noticed the Moon Druid was semi useless more often than not level 18 and 20 look good but you can more or less ignore them in wildeshape form as they are not that much of a threat and its pointless wailing on their buckets of hit points.

Turning into a elemental is useful at 10, gets less useful later on. My players are starting to use land Druids more or variant 3pp Druids such as the Elemental Druids and Circle of Life Druids from En5ider.

Level 14 Moon Druids useless? Hahahahaha. Regenerate (one nigh-unkillable PC for an hour), Reverse Gravity (large AoE crowd control + damage against anything without flight, targeting a weak save), Conjure Fey/Elemental + Planar Binding (e.g. Invisible Stalker for 1000 gp each, or a nice coven of invisible Green Hags for Lightning/Polymorph/Counterspell/etc. for 3000 gp), or just summon a nice flock of 24 Giant Owls/etc. (if you can't think of a way to use 24 Giant Owls, you're not trying hard enough. E.g. 98.5% chance of successfully grappling an adult red dragon and causing 20d6 falling damage to it).

And it's not like you don't still have good old lower-level fallbacks such as Polymorph, Pass Without Trace, and even Faerie Fire (targets a weak save + gives advantage to allies = solid).

Unlike a wizard, I don't even have to guess whether your level 14 Moon Druid had access to these spells. Because he's a druid, I know he had these options. Semi-useless? No way. If your level 14 Moon Druid was semi-useless, either your campaign is atypical (lots of highly-mobile spellcasters and solo monsters maybe?) or your Moon Druid player was playing badly.

RE: elemental form, Mobile feat + (Earth Elemental Earth Glide or Air Elemental flight) never goes out of style. CR 5 forms like Hulking Crab and Giant Crocodile/Brontosaurus are also good.

D&D 5E Classes Rated By Tier

Captain Panda

Explorer

RCanine

First Post

Captain Panda

Explorer

Zardnaar

Legend

Captain Panda

Explorer

RCanine

First Post

Ovarwa

Explorer

Zardnaar

Legend

Captain Panda

Explorer

FormerlyHemlock

Hero

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