D&D 5E I don't think Wizards is looking at the whole picture.

Tony Vargas

Legend
If that is the case, then D&D is doing extremely well as over 150,000 participated in the playtest.
150k may have signed up for the playtest - the most positive possible way of interpreting that statistic (I'd like to think they didn't total up downloads of each packet or anything). What fraction of those filled out even one survey is another question entirely, let alone how many stuck with the whole playtest - and WotC chose not to share those numbers.

I ran the playtest as much as I could, barely scrapping together 1 table most seasons, while 3 or 4 or 5 other tables kept playing regular Encounters like nothing was happening, and when a player would comment that they didn't like this or that rule, and I'd say "well be sure to comment on that in the survey," I'd find they'd never even filled out a survey! WTF?

But, yes D&D /is/ doing well by cleaving to tradition leavened with a bit of here and there of the modern editions. It's not flirting with any of the targets set for it in 2008, but it doesn't have to come anywhere near those blue-sky levels to dominate the TTRPG market and provide a foundation for the IP.

There is no evidence that "die-hard" fans vary so much from "non-die-hard fans" that you couldn't adjust your survey results based on knowing respondents were mostly die-hard and come up with some pretty good trend analysis.
There's gotta be some usefulness to such survey data when it came to holding onto existing fans, which was a major 5e goal. Like in politics, you need to play to your 'base.' That your most ardent long-time fans wanted a very traditional version of the game was certainly worth confirming.
 

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ZeshinX

Adventurer
I stopped paying attention to WotC's verbal spinning and their "vision" a little while ago. It's done wonders for me. I find their MCU'ing attempts with the D&D brand hopelessly and hilariously inept thus far, but I've stopped caring. I play and enjoy the 5e Core and haven't spent a dime on the subsequent chaff they (or their contracted studios) have puffed out.

I look over at them from time to time to see if there's anything I find worthwhile dropping some money on, but beyond that, I don't much care what they do with it anymore. I'd like to see some campaign settings, some setting mostly-neutral crunch stuff (see Advanced Player's Guide from Paizo)...but those two types of books are not really what WotC wants to do with 5e. Which is fine by me, I'll just keep making my own stuff for my table. I'm just as happy to keep my money really.

Of course...once I see D&D action figures in toy stores...I'm walking away. :p
 

delericho

Legend
We need iconoclasts.

Iconoclasts are fine, but this is a discussion forum. When I asked if there was anything we could say that might change his mind, that actually was a serious question - because if the answer is "yes" then there's actually something to discuss, but if the answer is "no" then there's little point (since for him to prove his point would require access to data that is WotC-confidential, if it even exists at all).

And, FWIW, I try very hard not to use an ignore list, because even people who annoy me occasionally say something useful. Indeed, I've only ever placed two people on ignore (one of whom is still here; the other has left/been banned), and currently have nobody on my list.
 

delericho

Legend
150k may have signed up for the playtest - the most positive possible way of interpreting that statistic (I'd like to think they didn't total up downloads of each packet or anything). What fraction of those filled out even one survey is another question entirely, let alone how many stuck with the whole playtest - and WotC chose not to share those numbers.

Certainly, I was one of those who signed up, downloaded a few of the packets, but never actually managed even one session of the game and never filled in a survey. Stil, 149,999 people is still impressive. :)

As for the question of "sticking out the whole playtest", it's actually the opposite - WotC have indicated that the number of playtesters (which probably actually mean downloads) went up with time. So it's not a question of them staying with it so much as more people joining.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Certainly, I was one of those who signed up, downloaded a few of the packets, but never actually managed even one session of the game and never filled in a survey. As for the question of "sticking out the whole playtest", it's actually the opposite - WotC have indicated that the number of playtesters (which probably actually mean downloads) went up with time. So it's not a question of them staying with it so much as more people joining.
I'd missed that factoid entirely. It'd've been much more encouraging that the impression I got from my personal experience, which was people dropping out of the playtest early. Wish I'd heard it much sooner.
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
8: Stop pushing the corporate agenda - Let's step back a moment and use Chris Perkins' figures in this exercise. They show that the majority of people homebrew. So why are still trying to focus on story, story, story, set in the Forgotten Realms when what people really want are more setting neutral tools and options to use in their homebrew?
That isn't a bad point, but the problem with setting neutral content is that it's basically splat and they want to stay away from splat. Just look at SCAG and the quantity of its splat. They also want to stay away from source books, as SCAG demonstrate*.

Could they make a more money by printing a few more books each year? Probably, but they opted for a decisively safe strategy for 5e. After 4e's debacle, it isn't a surprise. I'm not sure it is the best long term strategy for the richness and quality of D&D, but it seems to be a strategy that works when it comes to revenues. Will it be a good long term strategy for revenues? I do not know. It depends on the objectives they set for D&D.

So right now it is just a sit down and watch moment and you can vote with your wallet.

*By that I mean lenghty source books and campaign setting books.
 

Which is kinda sad, as only the most die-hard fans stuck with the playtest, let alone completed all the surveys. The drop-off of interest in the playtest in my area was dramatic. May have been different other places, of course.
The response rate for surveys is usually pretty low. 50% is usually good. WotC has said the surveys were much, much higher. So there was a range of players.

Through AL. Put out a new setting, with new player materials, run the next season of AL exclusively in that setting with those rules. Of course, they're not really new players, but if a new player stuck around for more than one season...
But what percentage of AL are brand new?
AL is good for new players, but it's also good for players of all amounts of experience. The percentage of new players is likely higher in AL, but a majority are likely somewhat experienced. And players are only "new" for a short period. The people who started playing AL at the start have been playing for a year now, and it will likely be another year before the next non-adventure is released. (And a brand new setting would take a couple years to plan and write, so how many new people would be playing AL in three years?)

That point aside, this doesn't strike me as the best idea.
First, it's changing the rules of AL in mid-campaign. You need to work in world conversions. People will want to continue playing their character, and many will play every other month. There will be a mix of characters.
Second, it's also adding another layer of complexity to getting into the game, adding learning a setting onto learning the rules.
Third, it's hard on the writers. The AL needs to write and plan far in advance, and they'd need to learn a whole new setting, possibly while still in flux. They'd have to throw all their storylines out the window or end them quickly.

AL strikes me as a campaign that needs to exclusively stick to the Realms, regardless of where the storylines are set.

Could be little more than a re-print in the case of settings that don't have all that ongoing-fiction-series change driving them.
But why reprint then when they can just direct people to an already published PDF?
Unless they're doing a full rewrite its easier to just do a 10-30 page campaign conversion document (like the Eberron one), albeit one quickly playtested and revised.

Somehow I don't think someone who wants the officialness of a published setting is going to be too happy with that.
Depends on the alternative. Official is nice if done well. That's the big caveat.
I think most Ravenloft fans were happier with fan conversions than Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. I think a lot of FR fans would have been happier with a fan conversion to the 4e ruleset than what actually happened. Many Ravenloft and Dragonlance fans were pretty darn happy with the licenced 3e products, which were only quasi-official.

Compared to any individual fan.
I'm willing to put time into a fan conversion during my breaks, my lunch, and free moments at work. I'm willing to work on the project during my evenings. On the weekend. I can certainly leverage more hours to a conversion than someone working in a business who needs to attend meetings and give reports.
That's also just on a one-to-one basis. I can coordinate with dozens of fans to edit and give feedback (or add more content) via a Google docs. A dozen fans can output and convert a heck of a lot more information than the three or four writers WotC has on staff.

The D&D community has shown that it likes tradition, which precludes changing the official rules much (as we've seen). But, perhaps paradoxically, what the individual DM /really/ likes is to change the rules. 5e accommodates that. But as we've seen, that encourages homebrewing more than snapping up scads of setting materials. The whole 'setting-sells' thing was a 90s phenom that hasn't come back, as yet (though it certainly could, and D&D'd've missed the boat just like it did the OSR and boardgaming bandwagons).
I'm not entirely sure settings really ever sold that well. They sold well enough for TSR, but they were quite happy fragmenting their audience and competing with themselves and their licenced products. And they almost certainly never sold as well as WotC expected D&D books to sell.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
But what percentage of AL are brand new?
No telling without doing the research.

But, how many brand-new players are playing AL vs playing in someone's home campaign? Probably a whole lot of 'em. You're just more likely to find out about and drop in on Encounters than be invited into an existing gaming cabal.

First, it's changing the rules of AL in mid-campaign. You need to work in world conversions. People will want to continue playing their character, and many will play every other month. There will be a mix of characters.
AL already does change what's available over time.

Second, it's also adding another layer of complexity to getting into the game, adding learning a setting onto learning the rules.
For a new player learning FR is no different from learning Greyhawk or whatever.

Third, it's hard on the writers. The AL needs to write and plan far in advance, and they'd need to learn a whole new setting, possibly while still in flux. They'd have to throw all their storylines out the window or end them quickly.
If it's one SCAG-like setting book a year, with an adventure path in the same setting that'd hardly seem out of line. You've got the whole year that one is playing out to do the next. Besides, they farm this stuff out.

I'm not entirely sure settings really ever sold that well. They sold well enough for TSR, but they were quite happy fragmenting their audience and competing with themselves and their licenced products.
In the 90s they did - World of Darkness being the obvious example, but TSR was also going nuts publishing settings. The industry wisdom of the day was that it was your setting that sold your game, not the system, so the system didn't matter (again, Storyteller being the obvious example - no offense, I played Storyteller a lot in the 90s, myself).

And they almost certainly never sold as well as WotC expected D&D books to sell.
I couldn't make a guess as to either figure (beyond what Dancey said about how big they wanted to grow the business at one point). But, the point is that it's not the 90s anymore, and a compelling setting isn't the killer app that moves a TTRPG system anymore.

WotC seems to think it's now the Adventure Path, the 'Story.' No reason that story has to always be set in the same place.
 
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Uchawi

First Post
I believe the focus is to drive more intellectual property rights and/or licensing. Stories are easier to create, and a rule set that is close to static is easier to manage. A good example is fantasy grounds. They get the same price for digital content.

Another thing to consider is a simple rule set is easier to adapt to older content. Selling old content is easy.
 

pming

Legend
Hiya!

I stopped paying attention to WotC's verbal spinning and their "vision" a little while ago. It's done wonders for me. I find their MCU'ing attempts with the D&D brand hopelessly and hilariously inept thus far, but I've stopped caring. I play and enjoy the 5e Core and haven't spent a dime on the subsequent chaff they (or their contracted studios) have puffed out.

I look over at them from time to time to see if there's anything I find worthwhile dropping some money on, but beyond that, I don't much care what they do with it anymore. I'd like to see some campaign settings, some setting mostly-neutral crunch stuff (see Advanced Player's Guide from Paizo)...but those two types of books are not really what WotC wants to do with 5e. Which is fine by me, I'll just keep making my own stuff for my table. I'm just as happy to keep my money really.

Of course...once I see D&D action figures in toy stores...I'm walking away. :p

Yeah, what he/she said! :D

At first I was "*sigh* ...Forgotten Realms. Dang it. Oh well, maybe I can get back into it and it will feel more like my grey-box 1e FR set...". In other words, I was willing to give them a shot. The Starter Set box, with the Mines of Phandelver was a nice surprise; loose, simple descriptions of world-fluff that I could interpret my own way, and an "adventure locale" style sandbox with a sub-laying story to tie it together...or not, my choice. Nice first step!

EDIT: SNIP a bunch of bitching and whining on my part...whups! :)

Ahem. Yes, ZeshinX, I agree. I'm happy playing my own world or my own converted settings. With 5e, it's a fairly simple matter to create my own stuff, really, much like BECMI and 1e was like for the DM. If I want some challenge to be difficult, I can just write up "Skill checks for swimming, climbing, other athletics and physical-based saves for surviving being dropped down into the freezing cold and fast moving underground river are around 18 to 22". I don't need to write down a whole page describing what checks for what maneuvers a PC may try, or what exactly the DC should be for this or that, or anything like that. Fast and loose is the name of the game for DM'ing in 5e... fast n' loose, baby! Fast n' loose... :)

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

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