Bard Faerie Fire in Tier 1

rgoodbb · Mar 7, 2019

I have so far played three Bards in 5th, (which does not make me an expert by any means) but the most useful first level spell (after first level only (sleep)), for me by far was Bane. I like FF. I don't mind DW but as mentioned before, the board must be set just right to pull that off, Bane. Bane man, especially when you can mix a little Mockery and maybe even Cutting Words. Those Orcs are going to have a bad, bad day. Tight, safe targeting 3 targets anywhere within 30 feet of you, Bad, bad charisma save.

Someone previously mentioned testing FF against Bane. I think that is a much more interesting comparison than Tashas' or DW, even though one is more buff and the other debuff. You give me 4 orcs, I will cast Bane on 3 of them or all of them if higher level within tier 1.

I'm not a maths guy so cannot run the numbers, so this is just my experience, but if you are thinking of playing a Bard, Bane would be my absolute first pick, and then Healing word, and then Disguise self for shenanigans and just add one more for flavour.

Ps. I cannot wait to reach a level where I can try Synaptic Static, Bane, Cutting Words and Mockery. That will be a good day indeed!

Dausuul · Mar 7, 2019

Faerie fire shines--pun intended--against a small number of enemies that are heavy on defense and low on offense. The fact that it sticks without an ongoing save, and can hit multiple targets, makes it very potent in that scenario. Take gargoyles (CR 2, a reasonable foe in tier 1). At AC 15 and 52 hit points apiece, it's going to take you a while to wear them down, and faerie fire will do steady work that whole time, boosting your allies' hit rate by up to 50%.

Bane is another spell that's good in long fights. Which you prefer will depend on a number of factors, including your own party composition. If you've got a bunch of tanky folks with high AC, or casters unloading spells that call for saves, bane is the best choice. If you're more offensively oriented and rely mostly on attacks, faerie fire is superior.

Of course, the ideal play is to have one PC cast bane and then have the next PC follow up with faerie fire against foes that now have -1d4 on their saves. Why pick one if you can have both?

Tasha's and dissonant whispers are made for shorter fights against squishier enemies. They're not worse than faerie fire or bane, nor are they better; they just serve a different function.

FrogReaver · Mar 7, 2019

rgoodbb said:
I have so far played three Bards in 5th, (which does not make me an expert by any means) but the most useful first level spell (after first level only (sleep)), for me by far was Bane. I like FF. I don't mind DW but as mentioned before, the board must be set just right to pull that off, Bane. Bane man, especially when you can mix a little Mockery and maybe even Cutting Words. Those Orcs are going to have a bad, bad day. Tight, safe targeting 3 targets anywhere within 30 feet of you, Bad, bad charisma save.

Someone previously mentioned testing FF against Bane. I think that is a much more interesting comparison than Tashas' or DW, even though one is more buff and the other debuff. You give me 4 orcs, I will cast Bane on 3 of them or all of them if higher level within tier 1.

I'm not a maths guy so cannot run the numbers, so this is just my experience, but if you are thinking of playing a Bard, Bane would be my absolute first pick, and then Healing word, and then Disguise self for shenanigans and just add one more for flavour.

Ps. I cannot wait to reach a level where I can try Synaptic Static, Bane, Cutting Words and Mockery. That will be a good day indeed!

I hadn't even started looking at bane but I can see a decent case for it. On average Bane once successful will result in 1 additional miss per 8 attacks. You would have to land bane on 2 orcs and have it last on them 4 rounds in order for bane to reduce the attacks the party takes by an average of 1.

Faerie fire if it lands on all 4 orcs will result in the fight ending about 1 rounds faster. If it lands on 2 orcs the fight will end about a half a round early and if on 3 of the 4 orcs will result in the fight ending 3/4 of a round early.

I think bane is actually slightly worse than faerie fire. If the fight ends 1 round early then there's at least 1 attack that doesn't get made with a chance that more attacks didn't get made depending on whether faerie fire helped some enemies in previous rounds go down before their turn as well.

Mistwell · Mar 7, 2019

UngeheuerLich said:
I can compare it. Bless serves a different pupose: lower enemy chance to hit and to increase chance of a failed saving throw.
Bless and faery fire have the same purpose: increasing your chance to hit.
Of course it is a bit unfair, and still, I can point out why bless has less opportunity cost to cast in some circumstances. As already discussed at length, to be a good cast, you need to do enough damage later to actually be better than magic missile (guaranteed damage immediately). The cost gets higher if you remember that casting bless delays spiritual weapon and so on.

Faery fire actually is still a good spell. Your accuracy increase is higher than the one of bless. It can also potentially affect the whole party.
But it is important to compare it to one of the best spells in the game to better know its limits.

You ignored half my objections, and your response to the one you did address was more of a fiat. That tells me you just wanted to compare them even if that's fitting a square peg in a roung hole. Again, Bane seems to be the comparable spell, and I am not sure why you think it's not?

FrogReaver · Mar 7, 2019

Dausuul said:
Faerie fire shines--pun intended--against a small number of enemies that are heavy on defense and low on offense. The fact that it sticks without an ongoing save, and can hit multiple targets, makes it very potent in that scenario. Take gargoyles (CR 2, a reasonable foe in tier 1). At AC 15 and 52 hit points apiece, it's going to take you a while to wear them down, and faerie fire will do steady work that whole time, boosting your allies' hit rate by up to 50%.

Bane is another spell that's good in long fights. Which you prefer will depend on a number of factors, including your own party composition. If you've got a bunch of tanky folks with high AC, or casters unloading spells that call for saves, bane is the best choice. If you're more offensively oriented and rely mostly on attacks, faerie fire is superior.

Of course, the ideal play is to have one PC cast bane and then have the next PC follow up with faerie fire against foes that now have -1d4 on their saves. Why pick one if you can have both?

Tasha's and dissonant whispers are made for shorter fights against squishier enemies. They're not worse than faerie fire or bane, nor are they better; they just serve a different function.

That is an important point. Length of fights really matters. If you look at fights that will take a lot more than 4-5 rounds to complete then any long duration buff or debuff with a single save becomes much much better. Most fights don't last but 4-5 rounds though.

FrogReaver · Mar 7, 2019

BluejayJunior said:
I agree that damage now is better than damage later. That's why I would rather hit the orcs with faerie fire on the first round of combat to allow my party members advantage from the start, rather than wait until the perfect set up of an orc next to 2 characters to hit it with DW to try to get it to provoke OAs.
In your exact scenario where there is already an orc next to characters and they haven't already killed it, then maybe DW will be better. But FF will be more beneficial to the battle as a whole.

Faerie Fire provides no damage now. It actually lowers damage now because you could have attacked instead of using it.

I've never advocated waiting for 2 allies to get beside the same orc in that battle. Use DW when a single melee ally is beside an orc. That's a round 1 comparison and it provides damage now unlike FF.

The whole argument I made is that FF won't be better because a dead orc on turn 1 is a bigger benefit than faerie fire provides for the whole fight. I even attempted to go through the scenario for each spell. So just stating that's not the case isn't an argument. It's utterly pointless to do that. Instead do something with a point, give me an explanation for why this isn't the case

FrogReaver · Mar 7, 2019

Mistwell said:
You ignored half my objections, and your response to the one you did address was more of a fiat. That tells me you just wanted to compare them even if that's fitting a square peg in a roung hole. Again, Bane seems to be the comparable spell, and I am not sure why you think it's not?

It was interesting. I'm here for interesting comparisons. It doesn't answer the question of the thread but it was thoughtful and interesting and not at all mean or ugly. Why be mean and ugly to a post like that?

FrogReaver · Mar 8, 2019

So I just thought of one good use for dissonant whispers.

Ready Action Cast Spell (Trigger: Enemy Moves adjacent Fighter)

Enemy moves up to Fighter
You cast spell. If successful enemy then uses remaining movement to move away from fighter thus preventing it's attack and instead giving the fighter an attack!

Of course it doesn't work if the enemy uses all it's movement getting to the fighter.

Zardnaar · Mar 8, 2019

Well this discussion spun off one of my threads. Ranked the classes level 1-4.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?657738-The-New-Tiers-Ranked&p=7575098#post7575098

FrogReaver · Mar 8, 2019

Zardnaar said:
Well this discussion spun off one of my threads. Ranked the classes level 1-4.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?657738-The-New-Tiers-Ranked&p=7575098#post7575098

You could thank me for not bogging down your thread with 5 more pages of faerie fire discussion

Bard Faerie Fire in Tier 1

rgoodbb

Adventurer

Dausuul

Legend

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Zardnaar

Legend

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

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