Star Wars: D20 v. Saga? [Update 12/08/08: Got The Book]

[Slider Wade]

I have both versions of the D20 rules and I'm debating getting the Saga rules.

I know about the class and skill changes (and thus affecting The Focre). What other changes were made that set it apart from the RCR book?

 

[Blackrat]

I find my english skills to be insufficient for explaining the gist of it, but I think the main differences are indeed the skills, and how both attack bonuses and defences increase by levels. It is also a lot streamlined. Generally I'd say it's for SW RPG what 4e was SUPPOSED to be for D&D. A huge improvement for making faster more cinematic combat system.

My opinion, go for it.

I hope Donovan Morningfire will come around soon and give a more detailed looks on the differences with better english .

 

[Aus_Snow]

There's a condition track, somewhat like Mutants & Masterminds', but in addition to Hit Points.

That's the thing that leaps out at me first, along with the Force changes and yeah, skills.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think that SAGA is much, much better than the original and revised d20 rules.

To summarise:

a) Combat is streamlined (no multiple attacks, but you add half your level to the damage with whatever weapon you use)

b) Classes are excellent - straight class features removed and replaced with talent trees (some of which may be shared with other classes or prestige classes).

c) No artificial division between 'jedi guardians' and 'jedi consulars' - although the talents you choose (see above) enable you to focus on one approach rather than another.

d) It allows you to do a number of things that you see in the films but which the d20 system essentially ignores. Deflect blaster bolts with your lightsabre? Check. Sense things with a helmet blast shield down? Check. Plus many others.

e) You don't use up your hit points (vitality) to power your force powers, but there is a nice mechanism to prevent people spamming off the same force power time after time.

f) Destiny!

g) Damage track which rolls together poison, stun, morale and a whole lot of other stuff (including persistent conditions) into one thing.

It isn't without its flaws - e.g. at low level force powers are probably too good against equivalent foes, but at very high levels they are too weak (although even that reflects the reason why the highest level jedi always end up in lightsabre combat).

For me, SAGA is the definitive Star Wars system, and I recommend it in a heartbeat.

Cheers

 

[Obryn]

SWSE is an immensely fun game. It's kind of a half-step between 3e and 4e, with a pared-down system and overall great resolution mechanics.

I'll echo Plane Sailing that the system's only major flaw, IMHO, is how Force Powers work... At low levels, a Jedi will be far, far better with the Force than they are with their Lightsabers. The two only catch up around Level 20, at which point it's too late.

As an aside, the official errata really helps the game. I'd incorporate it ASAP.

-O

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

So if the low levels of Force are too good and high levels are too weak... where's the sweet spot?

And once you've got the sweet spot established, how do you tweak the Force so it's smoother/more useful across a greater number of levels?

 

[Obryn]

So if the low levels of Force are too good and high levels are too weak... where's the sweet spot?

And once you've got the sweet spot established, how do you tweak the Force so it's smoother/more useful across a greater number of levels?

There's half-steps and dramatic steps...

(1) One possibility that could be easily implemented is to make Skill Focus: UTF only give +1 per 2 levels, or +1 per 3 levels, to its max of +5. (Alternately, just restrict it until later levels. Or, ban it until higher levels.) At low levels, the extra +5 is overpowering.

(2) More dramatically, change Force Use to a separate Attack Bonus that goes up +1/level and uses Charisma.

The main issue with either of these is that the DCs listed in the core books assume very high UtF checks.

For my next SWSE campaign, I'm using

(3) Disallow PC Force use at low levels. I'm working up a Star Wars Meets the Dirty Dozen style campaign.

-O

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'd probably restrict "Skill Focus(use the force)" so that you can't take it until you have a force-using prestige class (or advanced class or whatever it is they call them).

That would probably fix 80-90% of the potential problems at low level.

Cheers

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Beginning to like this place less and less. I just has a long, thought-out post regarding Skill Focus (Use the Force), and this frelling place just devoured it, saying I wasn't logged in when the first thing I did before trying to add a post was log in. Not even the WotC boards were this bad at devouring posts!

Summation: Problem in Saga Edition with Force powers seeming to be so powerful at low levels isn't entirely the system, but specifically the feat Skill Focus (Use the Force).

Saw a pretty clear example of this in last Saturday's session, with two Force-users, neither of whom had taken SF (UtF). In both cases, their Force Powers (when used) weren't quite the "I Win Button!" that some people make Force powers out to be. Effective, certainly, but not overwhelming either.

As for benefits of SWSE, Plane Sailing hit all the major points, so I really don't have anything more to add.

 

[drothgery]

I'd probably restrict "Skill Focus(use the force)" so that you can't take it until you have a force-using prestige class (or advanced class or whatever it is they call them).

It'd probably be cleaner to just require knowledge of at least one Force Technique to take Skill Focus: Use the Force. All the 'first-tier' force-user prestige classes (Jedi Knight, Force Adept, Sith Apprentice) grant them as class abilities. But that does kind of punish oddball Force user builds.