Beholder Conversion

[frankthedm]

The death kiss has always been a favorite of mine. As far as stats go, i'd think something like a flying giant octopus would be a good place to start

Spoiler

img412.imageshack.us/img412/2897/beheld.png

Death Kiss
img685.imageshack.us/img685/7384/bloodeye.png

 

[angelroble]

I really like this take on the beholder:
Design & Development: Monster Makeover: The Beholder

And CMB and CMD and you are ready to go.

I had a look at that version before my own conversion. I liked some of the options, mainly the reduction of types of rays and the antimagic ray mechanics; also the way to avoid facing rules. I have, in some way, taken those mechanics in my B.

Some other options are not of my taste. Ex: 2 disintegration rays per round means 26d6 x 2 damage (182 avg) on saves failed. Also the lack of the petrifying and fear effects.

 

[angelroble]

Regarding Clerics:
From my experience, Cleric characters have great saves in addition to save-boosting spells. Making DC17 test at 10th level was almost non-issue.
Both Pain and Paralysis rays attack strongest saves (Fortitude and Will).
Adding anything capable of damaging Clerics (touch rays, Reflex save rays) would ensure preserving the challenge rating.

Regarding Barbarians:
Flight... should be good enough

Regards,
Ruemere

A 10th level cleric has a base fort save of +7, at 13th level it's +8. Add maybe +2 for Con (Clerics need lots of different stats), and +2 or so for resistance. That means they need 5 or so in the dice roll...
So maybe the DC it's too low for the lowest save a cleric has to roll. Of course, increasing the fort DC means that wizards are easily killed.
Counters: the Beholder can make its attacks (3-4) once per round; the rays are supernatural (no SR, can't be dispelled or counterspelled).

 

[Walking Dad]

I had a look at that version before my own conversion. I liked some of the options, mainly the reduction of types of rays and the antimagic ray mechanics; also the way to avoid facing rules. I have, in some way, taken those mechanics in my B.

Some other options are not of my taste. Ex: 2 disintegration rays per round means 26d6 x 2 damage (182 avg) on saves failed. Also the lack of the petrifying and fear effects.

I see. Good points. I also thought combats decided by save or die a bit anti-climatic... perhaps a slower petrify effect (last stage of your paralyses effect?).

 

[James Jacobs]

1) AC/HP. DR 5/- equals 25 hp more if the B takes 5 hits of 25 dmg each. The fortification effect and the ability to avoid flanking also add lots of hp. Flying at least slow the damage as the PCs have to cast fly or drink potions. But the true hp saver here is the immediate action the B gets every round. The B can slow, trip, disarm or counterspell an enemy each round as an immediate action.

While damage reduction helps the beholder, at high CRs the expectation is that monsters will have DR, immunities, and the like, so that's sort of implied already. Besides, DR won't help the beholder at all against energy damage, force damage, or untyped damage. Sure, he's got his antimagic eye to stop a lot of that, but that antimagic effect also lessens the power of his eye rays and it only works against some of the enemies.

Of course, the beholder is a VERY weird and unusual monster who really doesn't follow the standard expectations when it comes to how it works in combat. There are some others like this as well, and in those cases it really helps to playtest the monster in combat to help nail down its best CR.

 

[angelroble]

I see. Good points. I also thought combats decided by save or die a bit anti-climatic... perhaps a slower petrify effect (last stage of your paralyses effect?).

Yes, that was my thought. All the save-or-die/suck were removed to allow PCs to "fight" against them over several rounds. They are removed from fight for some rounds, returnig perhaps in the moment another PC is knocked down for another few rounds...

 

[angelroble]

While damage reduction helps the beholder, at high CRs the expectation is that monsters will have DR, immunities, and the like, so that's sort of implied already. Besides, DR won't help the beholder at all against energy damage, force damage, or untyped damage. Sure, he's got his antimagic eye to stop a lot of that, but that antimagic effect also lessens the power of his eye rays and it only works against some of the enemies.

Of course, the beholder is a VERY weird and unusual monster who really doesn't follow the standard expectations when it comes to how it works in combat. There are some others like this as well, and in those cases it really helps to playtest the monster in combat to help nail down its best CR.

Just one thing, James: the antimagic ray is no longer an antimagic area effect. It only supress one given spell, or illusions in the area, or counterspells as an immediate action.

On the playtest: yes, I plan to do a playtest before Sunday, as my group perhaps find the B. that session. Sadly, I'll have to do it by myself alone. Not the best way, but at least I have my player's pc sheets.

 

[ruemere]

A 10th level cleric has a base fort save of +7, at 13th level it's +8. Add maybe +2 for Con (Clerics need lots of different stats), and +2 or so for resistance. That means they need 5 or so in the dice roll...
So maybe the DC it's too low for the lowest save a cleric has to roll. Of course, increasing the fort DC means that wizards are easily killed.
Counters: the Beholder can make its attacks (3-4) once per round; the rays are supernatural (no SR, can't be dispelled or counterspelled).

Prayer (+1 luck all saves - 1st round of combat), Magic Circle vs Evil (+2 resistance to all saves - cast at the beginning of exploration or 1st round of combat), Heroes Feast (+1 Will save - cast each morning). Magic Circle vs Evil could be skipped if you have Cloak of Resistance +2.

Summarizing: This is standard 11th level cleric - +3 to all saves, +1 to Will save. Base saves: +7 +3 +7. Wisdom bonus probably at least +4. Constitution bonus +2.
End result: +13 +6 +15.

I agree that unprepared (or employed by inexperienced character) cleric may be an easier target. However, an experienced player will probably optimize the cleric much better than me (Quickened spells, for example).

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[frankthedm]

Yes, that was my thought. All the save-or-die/suck were removed to allow PCs to "fight" against them over several rounds. They are removed from fight for some rounds, returnig perhaps in the moment another PC is knocked down for another few rounds...

for a Petrifying beam, have the beam

Deal modest Damage and Slowed, with a condition that the victim will petrify if it hits zero HP in the next minute.

or

Deal Continuous damage and Slowed, with a condition that the victim will petrify if it hits zero HP in the next minute.

 

[angelroble]

Prayer (+1 luck all saves - 1st round of combat), Magic Circle vs Evil (+2 resistance to all saves - cast at the beginning of exploration or 1st round of combat), Heroes Feast (+1 Will save - cast each morning). Magic Circle vs Evil could be skipped if you have Cloak of Resistance +2.

Summarizing: This is standard 11th level cleric - +3 to all saves, +1 to Will save. Base saves: +7 +3 +7. Wisdom bonus probably at least +4. Constitution bonus +2.
End result: +13 +6 +15.

I agree that unprepared (or employed by inexperienced character) cleric may be an easier target. However, an experienced player will probably optimize the cleric much better than me (Quickened spells, for example).

Regards,
Ruemere

I'm finally convinced the DCs must be higher. What about this option?
If one PC is hit by one ray in a given round and he pass the save check, there is a -2 penalty (cumulative) for that ray save in the next round, until he fails his save. Perhaps only for save-or-suck rays (not for the pain ray).
Maybe it is a bit cumbersome for you have to register all the penalties a PC has, but it is a way that no one is sure he's going to pass the saves, and will have to look for cover.