Arcanist playtest

[Kinneus]

I do still feel your dismissal of other folk's concerns is poor form - not just disagreeing with them (which is entirely your right to do), but this persistent outlook that if a problem didn't exist for you, it could not exist for others...

This is very true, but I think along the same vein people should remember that just because there was a problem for you and your group, that does not mean it was a problem for every other group in existence or even a problem for a majority of groups. As I said before, I really haven't heard the argument that Flaming Sphere is overpowered anywhere else except for this thread.

You want to change Flaming Sphere to EoT? Fine. That's a perfectly viable choice. But the power, as it is written now, is simply not viable. Seriously, compare it to Sleep. Forget whatever your personal feelings or past history with the power is, and compare it to Arcane Whirlwind (why create soft control by encouraging an enemy to move when you can get hard control with a slide?) Consider it being used against monsters that have movement baked into their attacks, or monsters that have minor or out-of-turn moves (things that are not especially rare, even at level 1. See kobolds and goblins).

I also disagree with the premise that Flaming Sphere doing a lot of auto-damage is some sort of grevious violation of the Controller contract. Lots and lots of classes have lots and lots of powers that allow them to act "out of their role," at least temporarily. Strikers are Strikers because they do big damage consistently. This doesn't mean that other classes should be barred from doing big damage, period. Otherwise, why is the Fighter's (a Defender's) very Striker-like Rain of Steel intact?

My point is, changing this power didn't "bring it in line" with other powers. All it does is ensure that for those groups that "always' saw FS being used will now "always' see Sleep being used.

 

[keterys]

I don't think Sleep will ever be the power that is always used. It's just a trick for certain builds.

And I absolutely agree that WotC should rebalance powers that they nerf excessively.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

And that's totally your decision to make! And it is worth offering your feedback to WotC - that is how they can make informed decisions.

I do still feel your dismissal of other folk's concerns is poor form - not just disagreeing with them (which is entirely your right to do), but this persistent outlook that if a problem didn't exist for you, it could not exist for others, and that any changes made that you disagree with isn't the result of addressing someone else's concerns, but instead simply 'bad playtesting'.

Similarly, the argument that changes don't need to be made because your wizard is really awesome at both control and damage... well, isn't really an argument that helps your side of the debate, honestly. Being a bit too good at bother categories was a large part of the rational behind the change!

In all seriousness, please point me out a thread that has ever mentioned that Flaming Sphere was out of control and needed to be changed.

There is no proof floating out there that there ever was a problem to begin with. I do understand that other's out there like the change, but there is no proof that anything was ever broken to begin with. Everything that Wizard's does is not always the right and correct thing. Just because a few people out there made the same changes long before this doesn't make what Wizards did more right.

The fact of the matter is the spell worked just fine before the change. If Wizards had never even made the change then nobody would say anything about it.

 

[keterys]

It's more of a philosophical change, than anything. For example - should you be able to kill minions without any roll whatsoever? One might argue yes, another no, while a 3rd says "Depends on the resource expenditure"

The 3rd, for example, might agree that killing all minions in an encounter with a vicious rod (possibly as a free action using an off-hand rod of corruption) was bad, and approved of that change to the game.

Was it okay for Firestorm to do so, blanketing an entire encounter in enemies only start of turn damage? Some would argue it's a daily, so sure... but others would disagree.

How about Pure Glow, an encounter power, that can do the same thing? Every encounter, all minions die... that's... more troubling.

So Flaming Sphere is on the lower end of that scale of a general movement to make damaging enemies require actual effort and/or expenditure. And that general movement is still a good thing, even if Flaming Sphere might need to be addressed to coexist in that new world.

For example, what if you changed flaming sphere to not just adacent, but anywhere in 2 squares. What if its attack was a close burst 2 from the conjuration? That'd be an amazing daily, with those increases, even with the end of turn change.

 

[Kinneus]

I think that fretting over killing minions too easily is pointless. That ship sailed long, long ago. Minions stop being a viable threat in high heroic. This is just the way the game is.

Changing that would require either a fundamental change to what minions are ("Minions only die when an attack roll hits them" would be an okay house-rule fix if this is truly a concern to you) or huge, sweeping changes to what is probably at this point over a hundred powers, feats, paragon paths and epic destinies.

It's just not worth it. Also, pretty irrelevant to a discussion over whether or not Flaming Sphere needs a change and/or what that change should be. Arguing that Flaming Sphere needs a change because it killed minions too easily is not a compelling arugment; minions die to a stiff breeze. Every game I've ever played in, after level 10 or so, they're essentially treated as set-dressing. Sprinkle them into an encounter, and let your players feel like Hercules as they mow them down with area attacks, auto-damage, multi-attacks, zones, and the dozen other things that handily slay them.

Also, minion-clearing has historically been the Controller's shtick, one of things he contributes to a party. The only time I've really felt threatened by minions were in parties that lacked a Controller, allowing them to gang up. Complaining that a Controller kills minions too easily is like complaining that Defenders are too hard to kill or that Strikers do too much damage. Sure, an individual power or feat might be overpowered, but bending over backwards to protect minions is kind of missing out on the point of what minions are there to do (which is die).

 

[MrMyth]

Just as a note - I definitely recognize some groups used the power and had no issues with it, and everyone does have different viewpoints. For our group, it was definitely in need of fixing. Like others have mentioned, I've seen folks chastised at LFR for not having it, Stinking Cloud, and other similar potent auto-damage attacks.

Any power that gives out free bonus attacks is stronger. One that did so throughout a combat, without rolling to hit, against multiple enemies? Even with the limiting factors, it was pretty darn potent.

You want to change Flaming Sphere to EoT? Fine. That's a perfectly viable choice. But the power, as it is written now, is simply not viable.

I agree it could use a bit more tweaking - I think that is very different from not even being viable.

To compare it with other powers:

Sleep: Apples and Oranges, really. Sleep is a non-damaging power that can either shut-down an encounter or accomplish almost nothing. Those whose builds tended towards such things would prefer it over Flaming Sphere both before and after the change - the two accomplish very, very different things.

Arcane Whirlwind: Good initial damage in a decent sized burst, and ok positioning control. Less useful for the previously mentioned 'bad choices' control. Being able to slide 1 enemy up to two squares, on your own turn, is very different from discouraging an enemy from approaching a ranged attacker, or encouraging an enemy to provoke opportunity attacks, etc. Arcane Whirlwind's initial effect is much, much stronger than flaming sphere. It's ongoing effect is much, much weaker - even compared to the new version.

Phantom Chasm: Another very good power. Again, a solid burst damage up-front, and enemies only. Good initial control (prone/immobilized) and it makes an area largely off-limits for enemies for the encounter. But that area doesn't move, which is definitely a big difference. Against the right enemies - where you can stay in that safe zone and force enemies to come to you - it works just fine. Against others, the ongoing effect will largely be irrelevant.

Fountain of Flame: Pretty much the same thing as Phantom Chasm, except it focuses on damage over control effects. Again, good up-front damage, a good zone effect, but lack of mobility makes it distinct from Flaming Sphere.

Overall, I find the new Flaming Sphere to remain a viable choice. The other powers mentioned tend to be better for immediate damage to a cluster of enemies, but have less potent effects over the course of battle. Flaming Sphere provides more use over the course of the encounter.

And that is really where daily powers should be. Some will be the best option for one encounter, while others will be ideal for a different fight. Rather than one choice remaining optimum for both circumstances - which Flaming Sphere was, previously, where it did more AoE damage than all of the good AoE spells, and was more useful over the course of the entire battle.

I also disagree with the premise that Flaming Sphere doing a lot of auto-damage is some sort of grevious violation of the Controller contract.

I think you are confusing two seperate points of argument. A class having powers that let them work out of role is fine (within reason). Wizards having a high damage power isn't a bad thing. The problem was that high damage, inflicted automatically, to multiple opponents, over every round of the entire combat? Wasn't especially balanced for anyone. Just like its cool for rangers to be strikers that deal lots of damage via multiple attacks, but that doesn't mean an infinite attack blade cascade is still balanced.

In addition to this, folks have mentioned that they find the solution nice because it emphasizes the wizard's role. For myself, I would also have been fine with a solution that kept Flaming Sphere as a damage-based power but simply toned down the damage to a more reasonable level.

Instead, they shifted it to work more like the Wizard normally works, and I'm fine with that two. But I don't think the power was fixed solely because Wizards shouldn't do damage. It was fixed because the amount of damage it did was potentially unbalanced.

Otherwise, why is the Fighter's (a Defender's) very Striker-like Rain of Steel intact?

I'll be honest - I've long felt Rain of Steel is an issue for much the same reasons., and remain hopeful it will one day be fixed as well.

My point is, changing this power didn't "bring it in line" with other powers. All it does is ensure that for those groups that "always' saw FS being used will now "always' see Sleep being used.

Seems unlikely, given how different those spells are. I'm sure some folks will switch to different options. I suspect others will still use Flaming Sphere - as I noted above, there are plenty of situations where it remains a viable choice, and we still really don't have any dailies that provide a similar ongoing effect throughout the entire encounter. The ones you offer as comparison tend to either lacking the ability to be moved (Phantom Chasm, Fountain of Flame) or have a very minor effect (Arcane Whirlwind, with a 2-square slide for a single enemy - or potentially two enemies if you don't need to move the zone, or are willing to give up your standard action.)

 

[Kinneus]

For example, what if you changed flaming sphere to not just adacent, but anywhere in 2 squares. What if its attack was a close burst 2 from the conjuration? That'd be an amazing daily, with those increases, even with the end of turn change.

That'd be a great change, and would go a long way in keeping Flaming Sphere competitive. While don't necessarily agree that Flaming Sphere required a change, I'm glad we agree that Flaming Sphere, in its current form, is too weak.
Another thing that might help is too loosen up the power's action economy. Currently, you're spending your Move and your Minor every turn to have this power not do damage. Eliminating the sustain Minor might help this power out a bit.
I've noticed that fewer and fewer powers have sustain minors these days, most seeming content with "until the end of the encounter."

 

[Psikus]

In all seriousness, please point me out a thread that has ever mentioned that Flaming Sphere was out of control and needed to be changed.

A quick search yielded two threads mentioning that Flaming Sphere was out of control and needed to be changed (dating back to 2009).
Thread 1
Thread 2

 

[ForeverSlayer]

A quick search yielded two threads mentioning that Flaming Sphere was out of control and needed to be changed (dating back to 2009).
Thread 1
Thread 2

Fair enough, there are two threads. But if you read them they don't really go anywhere because the majority feel that the spell was fine as it as, or they didn't take it because it hurt the fellow PC's.

The first thread spoke more about Sleep than it does FS.

 

[keterys]

That ship sailed long, long ago. Minions stop being a viable threat in high heroic. This is just the way the game is.

Is and will be are very different. WotC has already shown that "what the game is" can change. In fact, depending on what classes people bring to the table, autodamage is already a thing of the past.

It used to be...
That Battleragers were near indestructible, gaining more temp hp when hit than most enemies dealt. (Now they only gain temp when they attack, and enemies deal far more damage)
That you could trick out astral heal to completely nullify a solo. (Bunch of healing changes, and oh boy are solos working different now)

Minions used to all entirely explode from vicious rod + corruption rod.
People used to get lots of extra turns from guileful switch.
Bloodclaw and Reckless used to drastically increase melee damage.
Etc.

Play an Essentials only game, and a host of problems with the game literally evaporate. (Along, unfortunately, with an awful lot of good stuff too, but hey) Unsurprisingly, a lot has been learned about the system in the past couple years.

Zone ping pong currently works, where a "slide 9" power might reliably do 100 or more damage. But WotC has already said it soon won't... maybe they'll even tap down a bit of the over-chargey-ness of the system, too. Maybe fix Kulkor Arms Master.

I've given up hope on +Stat to attack bonuses / -Stat to defense going away, sadly. That's a pretty big proud nail at the moment.

And at the end, it'll still be 4E, but a far more resilient 4E. If done right. Or it'll be a 4E with a bunch less viable options, but even that's not necessarily horrible since we've got thousands and thousands.