D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

[Mournblade94]

Are you going to claim that a majority of AD&D games progressed past 12th level?

That is definitely not an unreasonable claim to make.

Again, where were the surveys back then? Where was the registry?

There is some market research done, but I know lots of gamers in this tri state area. Not one of them has ever been asked to complete a survey. I question the validity of the research.

 

[Mournblade94]

Yes. I quoted it upthread. It comes from Ryan Dancey's survey data, now more than 10 years old but I think (in part because of that) a fairly reliable guide to AD&D play practices.

It may be the best we have, and if we have to go by that Data then yes you made the claim, but I would not call it reliable.

Sometimes we have to go by the data that is the 'best we have' but it is in no way a scientific survey.

I remember those surveys. They were stuck in just about every box or rules set they released in the TSR and Early WOTC days. Being a scientist, I liked filling them out. Most people did not. Anecdotally I know I am the only one that consistently sent them off, most of the others left them in the box. I seriously estimate that mail in rate was about 1 in 100. That sample size is not representative, but I am not claiming those numbers are correct. It is just an estimation.

From what I have seen of the behaviour of gamers and those surveys, I do not think the sample size would be enough to make it truly valid.
If this was a recent survey with email, that did not require alot of effort to MAIL on the gamer's part, I would find it more reliable.

 

[Campbell]

The sample is not representative, but it has nothing to do with size of the response. The problem with the survey is its collection method. Data collected via selective response is highly susceptible to bias, but is often the best we have to go with because with a population of interest that consists of 'all D&D players' it can be difficult to use better methods of data collection. If you're more interested in certain demographic targets like age, affluence, family size, etc. and want to determine what that particular demographic is interested in its far easier to construct statistically significant studies.

 

[pemerton]

Yes. What level did they start at? People have been starting campaigns above 1st level since the 1e days. There isn't enough information to infer the levels they end at with any reliability.

So the thought is that level limits work as a balancing mechanism, in practice, provided the game starts at mid-to-high level?

We had maybe one campaign out of five or so as I traveled around with the military where we started at name level so we could be rulers and demi-gods.

In those games, how many people chose to start as level-capped demi-humans?

 

[pemerton]

Here is the presentation of the data by Dancey. He describes the methodology:

Wizards of the Coast regularly surveys various aspects of the adventure gaming channel; distributors, retailers and consumers to better understand their preferences, concerns, and needs. . . The contents of this file are excerpts from those sources . . . The primary source is a market segmentation study conducted in the summer of 1999.​

I do not think that this data is simply relying on people filling in cards in boxes and mailing them in.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

The fact of the matter is, none of us have any accurate information that they can use to justify the argument so we are left looking straight at the book, which indicates that the game goes to 20 and beyond. This in turn makes my original statement stand because having access to 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells trump any bonus the elf is going to give.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Let me give you an example that would be similar to one of those survey methods. Ever see a make up commercial where they say 95% of women prefer X? Well of you look at the bottom on the screen, you will see, in small letters, where they surveyed about 250 women. Now this in no way represents the overall opinion of women, only the ones that were actually surveyed.

Same goes for this survey. The ones that were actually surveyed are where your results come from, not the overall community.

 

[billd91]

So the thought is that level limits work as a balancing mechanism, in practice, provided the game starts at mid-to-high level?

Did I say that? No. I said there's not enough information to infer at what level those games ended. How many levels does it mean they achieved if they start a campaign with new PCs every 8 sessions? Every 19 sessions? Do they start at first level? Second? Fourth? Eighth? Tenth? The appropriate level for whatever published adventure the DM wanted to run? Who knows? Nobody reading that survey summary, that's who.

 

[Balesir]

The sample is not representative, but it has nothing to do with size of the response. The problem with the survey is its collection method. Data collected via selective response is highly susceptible to bias, but is often the best we have to go with because with a population of interest that consists of 'all D&D players' it can be difficult to use better methods of data collection.

Thanks for bringing an iota of sense to this utterly barmy thread. The idea that "only a small proportion of the total population replied" is a reason for non-representativeness of surveys is an ignorant misconception. Any sample of around 60+ can have average values that follow a normal distribution (and are thus representative and susceptible to statistical tests for validity). The reason the surveys might be biased are because of sampling methodologies and hypothetical questions, not because of low sample size.

Oh, and the "95% of all women" thing might even be from a representative sample, but they don't cite the hypothesis confidence level, which is usually the killer datum.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Well, I think if you find balance over the campaign approach not to work, then it clearly isn't for you. I wouldn't argue others should embrace my sense of what makes a game balanced. But what I can say is when they moved away from that, particularly when they started with using the encounter as the focus of balance between the classes, for me the game lost a lot of its sparkle. A big part of D&D for me is the rising level of spellcaster magic over time. Even when I am not a wizard, seeing the weak wizard progress through dedication into something awesome is part of what makes the game so fun. If others don't like that, I see no value in demanding they agree with me. To me this just highlights how seemingly little things divide us as they work toward a new edition.