Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

[Dandu]

Eh, my ruling on that would be that a level 9 spell cannot be used to chain cast other level 9 spells (the wording of the Wish spell makes this clear that the 9th level wish spell can be used to duplicate 8th level spells, so I think the principle is fairly sound),

At no point did I say you could use the Wishes to chain cast 9th level spells, though I suppose you could Wish for scrolls of Astral Projection if you were so inclined.

Therefore, the magic involved drains the wishes from the original Luck Blade to power the astral effect. In point of fact, I would probably rule that any utility magic used in the astral form drains the magic from the original thing to power the astral effect. I would make sure players casting the spell knew this if I thought it was going to be an issue.

Now here's the interesting question: What is the basis in the rules for that interpretation?

I have no doubt that is how you would rule to make Astral Projection less balanced, but that is not what the spell says. The spell says that it creates copies of you and your equipment. Items with charges will then be copied, to be used in the normal fashion.

If it helps, think about the Astral body; when it takes damage, the wizard's original body does not take damage. If the Astral Projection takes lethal damage, the spell ends and the wizard wakes up from his coma. His body's hit points are not linked to his Astral Projection's hit points. Explain to me why the charges in his item would be linked to the charges in his Astral Projection's possession?

Ruling that the effects are temporary, or that the charges of the original item are used up, is going beyond what is written. Just because you can fix it doesn't mean it isn't broken; in fact, it is usually a sign that something is broken.

Just like with Wall of Iron, which creates an amount of iron that sells for far more than the material component of the spell costs. The DM can always rule that, perhaps, the iron is very low quality, or that the market value of iron is different than what is written in the books, but that doesn't change the fact that, as written, any mid level wizard has the ability to become a steel magnate.

Added to this, would a reasonable player acting in good faith expect to be able to access unlimited wishes in this (or any other) fashion?

Wishing for more wishes is flat-out against the rules. This has been stated numerous times.

However, there are ways around that...

On a more serious note, the Candle of Invocation has allowed for infinite wish loops since day one. I believe the standard procedure is to use the Gate option, request a noble djinn, use the first wish on another Candle (8400 gp, easily within the limits of a Wish), use the second on whatever you desire, and the third on making sure the djinn does not harm you, if you are sufficiently paranoid.

While I would not argue it is reasonable to expect infinite wishes, the methods for doing so are fairly simple from the way the game is written.

 

[Dausuul]

I'd have to go with yes? There are a bunch of ways to get infinite wishes in the game at levels 17+. A reasonable player, playing the game as written, without previous discussion of house-rulings, should expect the individual parts to operate as specified. It would be unreasonable to assume they don't operate as specified: that's what specifications are for after all.

Now a responsible player (note the word change) may decide that the specifications as provided will damage the experience at the table and may seek a house ruling to adjust the specifications.

To misquote the U.S. Supreme Court, the Player's Handbook is not a suicide pact. A reasonable player should assume the DM will apply the rules in a way that does not lead to obviously broken and destructive results. The rules on how "astral copies" work are vague--in fact, they are nonexistent--which gives the DM plenty of leeway to interpret them as Wicht did, that the astral copy remains a perfect copy at all times, so a charge expended from one is also drained from the other.

There is similar room for interpretation in most "infinite wishes" exploits. For example, the popular trick of using a ring of three wishes to wish up three more such rings can be answered by arguing that since the creator of the first ring did not pay the additional XP cost for the "create a magic item" version of wish, the ring's charges don't work for that. Is this the only possible interpretation of the item creation rules? No. But if there is one at least marginally plausible interpretation that does not cause the game to degenerate into rank idiocy, a reasonable player should expect that to take precedence over any interpretation that does cause the game to so degenerate.

 

[Dandu]

To misquote the U.S. Supreme Court, the Player's Handbook is not a suicide pact. A reasonable player should assume the DM will apply the rules in a way that does not lead to obviously broken and destructive results. The rules on how "astral copies" work are vague--in fact, they are nonexistent--which gives the DM plenty of leeway to interpret them as Wicht did, that the astral copy remains a perfect copy at all times, so a charge expended from one is also drained from the other.

Then how come the wizard's body does not suffer HP damage when his Astral form does?

 

[LostSoul]

Why does it always come back to this. Let's shout it out HEY OUT THERE! HAS ANYONE EVER PLAYED A GAME WHERE YOUR TRAVEL TIME DETERMINES WHETHER YOU ARRIVE AT A KEY LOCATION LONG BEFORE, OR WELL AFTER, THE ADVENTURE AT THAT LOCATION? No? Me neither. The game may be structured to present time pressure, but I've never seen a game where, by the time the PC's get to AnyTown, the Evil Cultists have long since finished the ritual, and the Demon Lord rules the earth. Oh, if only they had selected Teleport last level, the campaign would not have ended prematurely. This tends to be set by the GM for ramatic purposes, not determined by whether the layers roll exceptionally well, or poorly, on their "Long Distance Travel" skill.

I may have.

In my last 3E game (Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil) I set up a timeline. The PCs managed their time well. They reached the "key location" (where the leaders of the cult were) well before they needed to engage with said location. That doesn't mean they couldn't have engaged with the cult leaders, just that they could wait a long time before doing so. (If they hadn't managed their time well, the cult would have succeeded, and the campaign would be quite different.)

I'm not sure if that qualifies as "long before the adventure at that location."

In another example, I had a hill giant chieftain massing an army (under the supervision of the Scarlet Brotherhood). When the PCs interfered with one of his goblin tribes, he decided it was time to march. The timeline was set.

The PCs took care of some other business, and a while later the PCs returned to the Cairn Hills to see if they could find the hill giant's lair. One PC could fly, so he spotted the army on the march. It just so happened that the PCs went back on the same day as the giants were marching. If they went back earlier, they'd find the army massing; later, and some towns would have fallen.

I think this is what Gygax had in mind when he said that keeping track of time was important in the AD&D DMG.

I think it's important to note that, in my game, there isn't "the adventure", there's the world of Greyhawk and what the PCs choose to do that makes up the adventure. I may detail the world, but it's a big enough place that the players can choose what they want to do.

 

[Dausuul]

Then how come the wizard's body does not suffer HP damage when his Astral form does?

Because the spell has specific rules overriding the general case, describing what happens if the astral form is slain.

Is this a somewhat tortured interpretation? Sure. The only time I'd bother with it would be in some kind of organized play setting where I felt obligated to conform to the rules as written; otherwise I'd just invoke Rule Zero and write a special case around item charges. But once again, the Player's Handbook is not a suicide pact. A reasonable player shouldn't expect to be able to lawyer his or her way into infinite wishes. A tortured interpretation of the written rules that prevents such an outcome is more reasonable than a mindless application of those rules that permits it.

 

[Dandu]

Because the spell has specific rules overriding the general case, describing what happens if the astral form is slain.

One might argue that the general rule is that an item uses its own charges, not that of another's. After all, the Astral Projection spell uses the word "copy" without saying that it drains charges from the original, which would be quite a leap given the lack of precedent involved and no specific statement to the contrary.

Is this a somewhat tortured interpretation? Sure. The only time I'd bother with it would be in some kind of organized play setting where I felt obligated to conform to the rules as written; otherwise I'd just invoke Rule Zero. But once again, the Player's Handbook is not a suicide pact. A reasonable player shouldn't expect to be able to lawyer his or her way into infinite wishes. A tortured interpretation of the written rules that prevents such an outcome is more reasonable than a mindless application of those rules that permits it.

The fact that you must have a tortured interpretation of the rules confirms my point that the spell is badly written. I believe we can all agree on this?

 

[Dausuul]

The fact that you must have a tortured interpretation of the rules confirms my point that the spell is badly written. I believe we can all agree on this?

Sure, and if Wizards ever issues errata to 3.5 again, they should clean this up. But it's also the case that in a game as big and complex as D&D, there are always going to be places where the simple, obvious reading of the rules leads to silly results. That's why one of the hats the DM wears is "judge in the court of rules lawyers."

 

[Dandu]

Sure, and if Wizards ever issues errata to 3.5 again, they should clean this up. But it's also the case that in a game as big and complex as D&D, there are always going to be places where the simple, obvious reading of the rules leads to silly results. That's why one of the hats the DM wears is "judge in the court of rules lawyers."

He should not have to do so and issue a tortured interpretation for a core spell in the revised version of 3.0 edition, which is ostensibly a finished product by a serious company full of professionals being sold for money.

 

[Nagol]

<snip lots>



Why does it always come back to this. Let's shout it out HEY OUT THERE! HAS ANYONE EVER PLAYED A GAME WHERE YOUR TRAVEL TIME DETERMINES WHETHER YOU ARRIVE AT A KEY LOCATION LONG BEFORE, OR WELL AFTER, THE ADVENTURE AT THAT LOCATION? No? Me neither. The game may be structured to present time pressure, but I've never seen a game where, by the time the PC's get to AnyTown, the Evil Cultists have long since finished the ritual, and the Demon Lord rules the earth. Oh, if only they had selected Teleport last level, the campaign would not have ended prematurely. This tends to be set by the GM for ramatic purposes, not determined by whether the layers roll exceptionally well, or poorly, on their "Long Distance Travel" skill.

<snip lots>

I've run them and played in them; I prefer sandboxes. In my last D&D campaign, there were several events they PCs found out about in advance, wanted to prevent, but were too slow to arrive. There were a couple of challenges issued where the PCs were under unknown time pressure -- a couple they succeeded and one they failed. The PCs left one area 1 week before a major event and another area 12 hours before a major event. They found out about the events a couple of months later as news reached them. They arrived at the location of a major NPC showdown a couple of days early and were able to prepare and lounge until the others arrived. They built a base in the desert a couple of months before they needed it at one of the final adventures..

 

[Dandu]

Why does it always come back to this. Let's shout it out HEY OUT THERE! HAS ANYONE EVER PLAYED A GAME WHERE YOUR TRAVEL TIME DETERMINES WHETHER YOU ARRIVE AT A KEY LOCATION LONG BEFORE, OR WELL AFTER, THE ADVENTURE AT THAT LOCATION? No? Me neither. The game may be structured to present time pressure, but I've never seen a game where, by the time the PC's get to AnyTown, the Evil Cultists have long since finished the ritual, and the Demon Lord rules the earth.

Aren't you on a timeline for some of the Elder Evils?