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D&D 5E Why the claim of combat and class balance between the classes is mainly a forum issue. (In my opinion)

Of course you see it that way... I guess I disagree, when you make broad claims like that, you should be able to back it up with real proof... Just saying.

OK. Prove what you think the most popular non-D&D system is?

And yet when comparing amazon sale ranks, the fate core rules rank way behind things like Numenera, Shadowrun, GURPS or Rogue Trader and is comparable to WoD.
Even the barely a month old System Toolkit ranks behind many of them.

I wouldn't think of buying Fate from Amazon tbh. First, it's free online. Second there's clicks and mortar. Third, there are PDFs. Fourth, calling the Fate System Toolkit only a month old is incredibly deceptive. The Fate System Toolkit http://www.evilhat.com/home/q3-sales-2013]sold almost 10,000 copies[/url] almost a year ago. And I've had hardcopy of mine for months. It's also a supplement. As for Fate vs Numenera, compare the kickstarters. 10,100 backers for Fate Core, 4600 for Numenera. (And only 2100 for Werewolf 20). All at around the same time.
 

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Imaro

Legend
OK. Prove what you think the most popular non-D&D system is?

I'm not (falsely??) claiming I have that knowledge... Thus I haven't put myself in the position where I have to prove anything...



EDIT: And if I did make a statement similar to the one you did I would definitely clarify that it was my opinion not state it as a fact.
 

Derren

Hero
I wouldnt think of buying Fate from Amazon tbh.

And that proves what? Unless you can somehow show that shoppers outside of amazon have a completely different shopping behavior it is still as good, imo better, than some "hot game listing".
And I was going by this thread by estimating the release of the toolkit and according to the comments it is quite recent.
http://www.evilhat.com/home/fate-system-toolkit/

But even if it was released in Q3 last year, it is still much newer than several of the systems which outsold it.

Fate does well, especially in the UK according to amazon (but loses big time in Germany) but those rankings cast imo a huge doubt on that Fate is "way ahead" of all the other systems.
 
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I'm sorry but what?? Citation, proof or some evidence to support your claim that Fate is the most popular non-D&D game on the market...

I guess my question is whether Fate is a genuinely a legacy of the forge. I don't know the history of Evil Hat, so maybe they developed the system through discussions there or something, but when I see fate I think Robin D Laws, not Ron Edwards. Not a knock against laws or Edwards, but Fate reminds me of stuff that was going on in the 90s prior to the forge. My understanding is Fate is based on Fudge. Again, I am going largely on second hand info here, by no means a fate expert. This is just the first I am hearing of Fate being a Forge game.
 

Imaro

Legend
I guess my question is whether Fate is a genuinely a legacy of the forge. I don't know the history of Evil Hat, so maybe they developed the system through discussions there or something, but when I see fate I think Robin D Laws, not Ron Edwards. Not a knock against laws or Edwards, but Fate reminds me of stuff that was going on in the 90s prior to the forge. My understanding is Fate is based on Fudge. Again, I am going largely on second hand info here, by no means a fate expert. This is just the first I am hearing of Fate being a Forge game.

Well maybe [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] can shed some light on the connections, since he is the one drawing it, but I honestly don't know if Fate originated through Forge theory or not (though you are correct that it was an offshoot of Fudge).
 


innerdude

Legend
I really can't agree with the idea that gamism is any sort of threat to the purity of RPGing.

Hmmm. With gamism I would say it's not about the "purity" of the RPG experience, it's about the effective limits, or systemic boundaries, of what constitute an RPG at all.

As I see it, an RPG that attempted to be as full-bore gamist as possible would in the end not particularly resemble what would traditionally be considered a pen-and-paper RPG. It would very much look like some other entertainment form we already have, such as a tactical minis game, an MMORPG, a board game, or a collectible card game. The fact that such a product might be highly thematic, with distinct mechanical "roles," with "character-like" entities filling those roles, wouldn't magically convert the end product into an RPG. It would just remain a highly thematic "non-RPG" designed to aid players in "stepping on up."

On the other hand, an RPG that attempted to be as full-bore narrativist as possible---and we have several products that at least semi-attempt to do this, such as Amber Diceless and Fate---would very much resemble what we would consider to be a "traditional" RPG, though of course its mechanics and internal conceits would vary.

What I'm saying is, gamism has a place in RPGs. But an RPG only works as an RPG at all when there's something offered besides pure gamism. There HAS to be something else going on---narrativism, illusionism, sim, high concept sim. If there's not, "roleplaying" basically becomes exactly what WotC has been trying to sell players as "adventures" for the last 5 years: a "delve" format of loosely-linked combats, where the only "narrative" involved is the GM swapping out one set of dungeon tiles for another.

That's a totally valid way of playing a highly-thematic tactical miniatures game. Heck, I just bought the Lord of the Rings Living Card Game a couple of months ago and love it, and it's basically the same thing---a highly thematic gamist enterprise, where the entire premise is "step on up" to defeat the scenario presented on the cards. I don't dislike gamism, in fact I love it. I am an avid, avid board gamer and video gamer. I typically buy 2-3 new Eurogames a year, because I love trying out new game mechanics.

But I don't play RPGs to get the same kind of experience as I do playing the Lord of the Rings LCG. To make an RPG an RPG, gamism must always be subservient to another agenda, or else the game turns into a "not RPG."

Even those who like gamism don't play RPGs because they like "gamism," they play RPGs because they like gamist RPGs. Without the other aspects that make an RPG and RPG, gamists wouldn't bother with them at all. They'd just keep playing their other gamist, "not RPG" pursuits.

In fact, an acquaintance of mine fit this bill to a "T" in graduate school. He was completely "into" comic books, and fantasy tropes, and sci-fi. Had a huge collection of Marvel and Dark Horse comics, and played Heroclix weekly. When I invited him to play in an RPG group, he flat refused, because he had no interest in transferring his gamist need fulfilled by Heroclix into the construct of an RPG. The "something else" offered him by an RPG held no interest to him---and that "something else" was directly related to the things Heroclix doesn't do, i.e., provide character-driven, evolving narrative structure to play.

(In some ways, there's probably a portion of frustrated gamists trying to get their "fix" from RPGs that like my acquaintance, would be better served by one of the many fantastic miniatures games out there. That way, they wouldn't have to deal with the "non-optimizers" messing up their "step on up" victories, nor sit and listen to the narrativists and "actor-stancers" moan and complain when they say they're tired of two-hour-long combats).

In this light, it makes perfect sense to me that 4e's audience shrank dramatically within 18-24 months of release, because gamists are the absolute easiest RPG audience to lose. Their fix is easily replicated by other activities, while those looking for less gamism in their RPGs likewise started looking elsewhere to a game that better suited their needs.
 
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First a full bore gamist RPG is brown box D&D. I don't know how much more traditional you can get than that!

Second, Fate isn't quite full bore narrativist. It just leans that way. Full bore narrativist would be Fiasco, Grey Ranks, or Montsegur 1244. And those very much do not look like trad RPGs.
 

innerdude

Legend
First a full bore gamist RPG is brown box D&D. I don't know how much more traditional you can get than that!

And what was the D&D brown box?

Chainmail, with a few additions from Gary and Dave.

And guess what--those few additions from Gary and Dave made all the difference for D&D being a much different experience than "just Chainmail."

You've proved my point far better than I could have. ;)
 

And what was the D&D brown box?

Chainmail, with a few additions from Gary and Dave.

And guess what--those few additions from Gary and Dave made all the difference for D&D being something besides Chainmail.

You've proved my point far better than I could have. ;)

That a combat syste, some spells, some equipment and a defined goal is very.traditional for RPGs? D&D as published remained very gamist until 2e although AD&D drifted a lot.
 

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