D&D 5E fighters and wizards both getting new toys?

[Sword of Spirit]

Hmmm...

I really dislike crunch heavy splat-books. I have a copy of Complete Arcane sitting on my bookshelf. I bought it for the warlock. I only need it for the warlock. There is some decent stuff in there, but I wouldn't have bought any of it. The wu jen I got out of Oriental Adventures, and that's where I needed it.

In general, I think 2e had the right amount of crunch in accessories. Most books that weren't the PHB or the monster books seemed to be about 90% fluff. I loved that.

I love setting expansions and theme expansions like Oriental Adventures, Al-Qadim, Wilderness Survival Guide, and of course the Complete Book of [Race].

I don't like the 3e or 4e splats because of their crunch focus. I do like the 2e Complete [Class] Handbooks because they were still mostly fluff.

I guess what I'm saying is that I want the PHB, (and to some extent, DMG and MM) stuffed to the brim with crunch, and the rest of the books very low on crunch.

But I can see the financial argument that players want to buy the latest "Book of KeWl PoWeRz." I don't like it, but I can see it. I wonder if there is a way to sell players something that avoids introducing crunch-bloat...

 

[Hussar]

Were the 2e class books really that light on crunch though? Every one of them had about twenty kits- all with some crunch. New spells and magic items. There's an awful lot of crunch in the 2e class books.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I hold out hope that D&D has learned its lesson on splatbooks and intends to keep its profits flowing through leveraging of the brand name instead.

The main drawback is whether this would lead to layoffs after publication.

 

[Shiroiken]

Were the 2e class books really that light on crunch though? Every one of them had about twenty kits- all with some crunch. New spells and magic items. There's an awful lot of crunch in the 2e class books.

That's actually the best part of the 2E books. There was enough crunch, but there was so much fluff, they remain useful even after several editions have passed. The only thing I've used the 3E splatbooks for since we stopped playing 3E was the elf name generator in the Races of the Wild. I've not used any 4E splatbooks since we stopped playing 4E. Even some of the crunch from the 2E books is translatable into later editions, mostly weapons, armor, and equipment, and the fluff of some kits were usable since they became prestige classes in 3E.

 

[Blackwarder]

Were the 2e class books really that light on crunch though? Every one of them had about twenty kits- all with some crunch. New spells and magic items. There's an awful lot of crunch in the 2e class books.

From my memories of the books, the complete familiy of books mearly broaden the scop of characters.
It was more like an horizontal Advancment instead of a vertical one, and the additive parts of the books, the combat tactics in the fighter books, the guild rules in the thief book, the pantheon building in the cleric book and the great exploration if schools of magic in the wizard book to name a few.

I heard the the complete bard and complete elves were notorious for being bad in that regard but I never read them or used them, I'll just say that I think that 2e series of complete books that I read (mainly the first 4) were by far the best I've seen in any edition so far.

Warder

 

[ExploderWizard]

It's better to sell 10 PHBs than 7 PHBs and 5 splat books. Because ultimately, the extra PHBs turn into more players, who eventually buy 7 more PHBs. The splatbook treadmill is great in the short term, but turns off a lot of players long-term. It's easier to maintain the core books as evergreen products if there isn't a huge library of splatbooks being associated with them, and players who are all playing a game with options that are hardly recognizable relative to the core books.

This is why I think, long-term, adventures, settings, and support products are better than splatbooks.

I would agree that this is the best route to go for longer term sustainability. The only impediment to such a plan is sustained levels of revenue/sales. When a product line HAS to produce X amount of revenue to be seen as worthwhile then splats are what do the trick for the short term. Long term is irrelevant when upper management pulls the plug because sustained sales aren't at the same levels that they were at launch.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I suspect we won't see crunch-focused splatbooks for an incredibly simple reason...

...if DDI includes a 5E character builder, then very few people who belong to DDI will bother buying the splatbooks. Cause they're going to get the crunch in the CB anyway.

Now, if you include new crunch within a campaign setting book, or an information book like the Wilderness Survival Guide, or a mega-adventure book... you are more likely to get at least some of those players to buy the book, because they're getting a bunch of fluff and story stuff in addition to the crunch that they wouldn't ordinarily get through the DDI programs.

I know personally... every single one of the "XXX Power" books I bought and owned for 4E was opened and used maybe once. After that, all the information in them after that point was only used by me via DDI... so I pretty much didn't need to buy those books at all. And this was doubly true for both Adventurer's Vault products. Had I realized this at the time, I wouldn't have bought those books. And many other books after that I didn't buy, specifically because of that reason.

If DDI will provide all the crunch to all the subscribers, then releasing books that are nothing but crunch makes those books superfluous to those people. And that ain't the best use of their printing and time I don't think.

 

[Jester David]

This is why I'm hoping the battle master fighter will be something closer to Pathfinder's archetypes other than a subclass. Otherwise it will make new fighter subclasses irrelevant.

I'm okay with new maneuvers every few books. So long as we're not getting the 4e era new powers for the sake of new powers and bi-weekly crunch in the magazines.

 

[Jester David]

Splatbooks are inevitable. But I imagine these will be more related to themes than just "the big book of options for 2-5 classes"
The later 4e books with their mix of crunch and fluff are also likely what some of the side books will look like. A book built around a theme with new options, monsters, rules, and the like. Like Aquatic Adventures featuring underwater options, sailing options, pirate subclasses and the like.

I imagine they'll look more like the Advanced Player's Guide for Pathfinder than the 3e or 4e books. By having options for all classes it dramatically increases the number of people who will want to buy the book. And there should be options equally for existing classes as for old classes; a problem of 4e was that much of the new content tended to be focused around new builds, which made the books less attractive to people already in a game.
Plus fewer bigger books help. The regular small books are easy to skip. I regularly bought every utter book during 3e, as there was so many books coming out. Fewer larger books have the same amount of content but make it easier to purchase and each book seems like more of a must-buy product.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I heard the the complete bard and complete elves were notorious for being bad in that regard but I never read them or used them, I'll just say that I think that 2e series of complete books that I read (mainly the first 4) were by far the best I've seen in any edition so far.

Warder

Bad in what regard? Complete Book of Elves had a bunch of broken kits, both over- and under-powered.

But the Complete Bard's Handbook was great. It started with a discussion of how the class was built and broke it down into four(?) key abilities. Then it presented a variety of flavorful takes on the bard that presented their own combination of 4 key abilities in place of those of the standard bard. Each kit was full of fluff and balanced well against the abilities of the standard bard. I have trouble even calling the result a bunch of kits, because what they really did was build a bunch of classes that rested on the same chassis.