D&D 5E D&D 5e Basic Set: Things that make you go "what?!"

[JC99]

Arcane Eye doesn't really worry me too much given the presence of lower-level spells like Invisibility, Spider Climb, etc. Cast Invis on the Elven Rogue, and you've got a scout that moves much more quickly, can actually deal with doors, and probably isn't that much less stealthy. Heck, Fly is also a 4th level spell - like it or not, 4th-5th level is where casters typically start getting the serious "shortcut" spells. At least many of them require concentration now.

Defense style seems a bit weak to me, but it's the only Fighting Style that applies regardless of what/how you wield. It stacks with sword & board, works fine with greatweapons, stacks with the TWF feat, etc...

The main thing making me go "what" at the moment is cantrip damage. I don't mind casters having at-will options, but they seem awfully good...

Because you don't add an ability modifier to damage, Firebolt and Ray of Frost still usually do less damage than a crossbow.

 

[Thaumaturge]

However not eating for 3 days (ish depending on CON) then eating a full day's rations works also has no downsides.

Just like in real life.

In my experience, anyway. I didn't fight goblins, though.

Thaumaturge.

 

[KarinsDad]

Also the defense fighting style for fighters is worse not worth taking with 2 handed weapons. You do as much damage with a 1 handed weapon & the duellist style & can use a shield for +2 AC instead of +1. This is a very minor "trap" - 2 handed swords do fractionally more damage & at some point you could have defence & great weapon fighting. It's not optimal but its fine if you want that style I guess.

The issue I have with it is that the starting great weapon PC takes this style. Mind you great weapon fighting is pretty poor too (only <+1 damage cf +2 for duellists).

This sort of thing irks me as it shows a level of mathematical naivety that feels inexcusable but it's minor stuff really.

Assume 3 for Str damage:

7.5 damage, +3 AC: Defense and One Handed Weapon
9.5 damage, +2 AC: Dueling
10 damage, +1 AC: Defense and Two Handed Weapon (one of the fighters in the starter set)
~11 damage, +0 AC: Great Weapon Fighting Two Handed Weapon
13 damage, +0 AC: Two-Weapon Fighting

The difference between Dueling and Defense with 2 Handed is small. However, Great Weapons nova more. 25% of rolling a 7 or higher on a 1 handed weapon, 50% with a Greataxe, and 58.3% with a Greatsword. Sure, the two handed weapon will average just a bit more damage than Dueling, but it will also drop a foe more often. Plus, the +1 AC for Dueling will only help one encounter in 3 to 5. I suspect that the WotC guys know more about math than they did in 4E.

And while it is true that the Two-Weapon Fighting guy wins out at level one, at level five it's a different story (not taking into account magical weapons, criticals, etc.).

15 damage, +3 AC: Defense and One Handed Weapon
19 damage, +2 AC: Dueling
20 damage, +1 AC: Defense and Two Handed Weapon
~22 damage, +0 AC: Great Weapon Fighting Two Handed Weapon
19.5 damage, +0 AC: Two-Weapon Fighting

At higher levels like 11, the two-weapon fighting guy starts falling further behind. But, the Fighter learns new styles by then (level 10).

But sword and board is perfectly reasonable. 5E is deadly. Keeping the Fighter up so that the rest of the team wipes out the opposition (like the Rogue shooting a bow and getting sneak attack damage against the Fighter's foe) is perfectly reasonable.

The Fighter does not have to be the striker. He could be the tank.

 

[Stalker0]

The Fighter does not have to be the striker. He could be the tank.

Yes, and I think it comes to a measure of degrees.

In 4e, strikers were very efficient at killing things, and defenders were very efficient at preventing damage. But the defenders often felt they couldn't kill monsters reliably without striker damage.**

In 5e, if the fighter can drop enemies just fine...but the rogue does it a bit quicker I think that's okay.



**Note: The 4e fighter wasn't a pure defender, he was actually a defender/striker. The 4e fighter wouldn't do rogue damage, but he was no slouch either. A swordmage or a charisma paladin are better examples of the pure defender vs striker argument.

 

[Pickles JG]

In 5e, if the fighter can drop enemies just fine...but the rogue does it a bit quicker I think that's okay.

I think they are very similar in damage output. The fighter is probably more survivable with his extra HP & second wind and consistent but uncanny dodge seems good.

I think the fighter is a bit worse out of combat as of course there is more balance across "pillars" rather than exclusively in combat like 4e.

 

[Stalker0]

I think they are very similar in damage output. The fighter is probably more survivable with his extra HP & second wind and consistent but uncanny dodge seems good.

I think the fighter is a bit worse out of combat as of course there is more balance across "pillars" rather than exclusively in combat like 4e.

Actually one of my concerns is that the rogue is much more "cinematically overpowered" compared to the fighter in combat as well.

The rogue's bonus action means they are very very mobile. They can do the jumping, dashing, swinging on chandeliers motiff. The thief can even take an item or drop your pants.


The fighter's main secondary combat actions (like shove) are done through skills, but the rogue can technically be even better at that then the fighter if he chooses to be due to expertise. Example: A rogue with 13 str at 1st level with proficiency in Athletics will have a +5 to the check...equivalent to a proficient Fighter with a 16 strength...which is probably the top strength most fighters would get at 1st level.

 

[Mouseferatu]

The fighter's main secondary combat actions (like shove) are done through skills, but the rogue can technically be even better at that then the fighter if he chooses to be due to expertise. Example: A rogue with 13 str at 1st level with proficiency in Athletics will have a +5 to the check...equivalent to a proficient Fighter with a 16 strength...which is probably the top strength most fighters would get at 1st level.

Fighter's Str is going to increase a lot faster, though, and he gets multiple attacks per round in a few levels. Meanwhile, he's still going to be able to take a lot more damage, and he'll still be fully effective in situations where the rogue wouldn't be.

I think it evens out.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think they are very similar in damage output. The fighter is probably more survivable with his extra HP & second wind and consistent but uncanny dodge seems good.

Even without Uncanny Dodge, Cunning Action is so good that the second level rogue can move in and attack the foe the fighter is engaged in, attack with two short swords for D6+3 damage main weapon, D6 off hand, and D6 sneak attack damage (for a total of 13.5 points of damage if both attacks hit), and then Disengage away in the same round. The Fighter is still engaged and can be hurt more by at least that foe who typically cannot disengage. The rogue is probably 10 or more feet away.

The fighter only does this level of damage if he too is doing two weapon fighting. However, the difference is that the two weapon fighter is engaged with a foe that can counterattack and the fighter has fairly crappy AC (because he is not fighting Defense and/or with a shield) whereas the rogue is 10+ feet away and cannot be attacked by that foe (shy of the foe moving away and OAing, or using a ranged weapon at disadvantage). Sure, the rogue has 2 fewer AC, but he's still a lot safer because he will be attacked less.


Cunning Action also allows the Rogue to hide. So he could fire a bow, move into heavy brush, and hide. Next round, he fires his bow with advantage (and then moves more and hides).

 

[Pickles JG]

Actually one of my concerns is that the rogue is much more "cinematically overpowered" compared to the fighter in combat as well.

The rogue's bonus action means they are very very mobile. They can do the jumping, dashing, swinging on chandeliers motiff. The thief can even take an item or drop your pants.


The fighter's main secondary combat actions (like shove) are done through skills, but the rogue can technically be even better at that then the fighter if he chooses to be due to expertise. Example: A rogue with 13 str at 1st level with proficiency in Athletics will have a +5 to the check...equivalent to a proficient Fighter with a 16 strength...which is probably the top strength most fighters would get at 1st level.

Same here though I was thinking he looked fun & effective. The other fighter build in playtest got to do tricks with a special mechanism so that may outclass anything the rogue can do.

Fighter's Str is going to increase a lot faster, though, and he gets multiple attacks per round in a few levels. Meanwhile, he's still going to be able to take a lot more damage, and he'll still be fully effective in situations where the rogue wouldn't be.

I think it evens out.

13 STR with expertise athletics rogue has +5 at level 1 & +13 at level 20. Fighter is +5 & +11.

Fighter has +1 hp +1 hp/level & second wind vs the rogue's uncanny dodge which seems great.

He will have more feats/stat bumps which would give him more effectiveness or more CON at the least.

It's pretty close but if the rogue does challenge the fighter for combat effectiveness he will be pretty dominant overall.

 

[Pickles JG]

Even without Uncanny Dodge, Cunning Action is so good that the second level rogue can move in and attack the foe the fighter is engaged in, attack with two short swords for D6+3 damage main weapon, D6 off hand, and D6 sneak attack damage (for a total of 13.5 points of damage if both attacks hit), and then Disengage away in the same round. The Fighter is still engaged and can be hurt more by at least that foe who typically cannot disengage. The rogue is probably 10 or more feet away.

The fighter only does this level of damage if he too is doing two weapon fighting. However, the difference is that the two weapon fighter is engaged with a foe that can counterattack and the fighter has fairly crappy AC (because he is not fighting Defense and/or with a shield) whereas the rogue is 10+ feet away and cannot be attacked by that foe (shy of the foe moving away and OAing, or using a ranged weapon at disadvantage). Sure, the rogue has 2 fewer AC, but he's still a lot safer because he will be attacked less.


Cunning Action also allows the Rogue to hide. So he could fire a bow, move into heavy brush, and hide. Next round, he fires his bow with advantage (and then moves more and hides).

The cunning action & the off hand attack both use the rogues bonus action so he cannot combine them.

Rogues lose a lot relatively when fighters get their second attack but 2 weapon fighting will make sneak attack very consistent & will do comparable damage, with increased effective accuracy I think.
(My limited character building so far is trying to figure out what mix of rogue & fighter levels my favourite itinerant chef character has on very spares information)