D&D 5E Observations and opinions after 8 levels and a dragon fight

[Mistwell]

I would say that makes my comprehension pretty good, if the statements being made fit the textbook definition of what a complaint is.

It didn't read like a complaint to me, nor did others take it that way prior to your post. Indeed, most people viewed his post as a positive post about 5e. So he's right...why did you read it as a complaint when nobody else seemed to be doing that?

 

[Syntallah]

It didn't read like a complaint to me, nor did others take it that way prior to your post. Indeed, most people viewed his post as a positive post about 5e. So he's right...why did you read it as a complaint when nobody else seemed to be doing that?

Because, like myself, I thought the OP was complaining a little bit, but I and others like me, thought that his complaints were actually positives..?

 

[txshusker]

I didn't, either. Just an analysis of how more difficult OP thought 5e combat could be than 4e and 3e.

I like the battle replay. Thanks. At the end of the battle, someone survived, so you won! Sounds like it was all that is was cracked up to be. I mean, how many times in IRL has an entire party survived a battle with an adult+ dragon? Matthew McConaughey didn't. Sir Ralph Richardson didn't. Even Samuel L. Jackson got chewed up. (stretch the reference?)

Another post, though, that continues my discomfort with the concentration RAW. I don't understand the problem with more than one buff working at a time.

I will comment, though, that any fighter walking around without a ranged weapon isn't really set up fully. The American Express Crossbow - don't leave home without it. And were there really no consumables available in your campaign by 8th level? That's some pretty rough DMing, there!

 

[Sacrosanct]

Because, like myself, I thought the OP was complaining a little bit, but I and others like me, thought that his complaints were actually positives..?

That was how I read most of the responses to the OP. "Your complaints I find as features, not bugs."

I like the battle replay. Thanks. At the end of the battle, someone survived, so you won! Sounds like it was all that is was cracked up to be. I mean, how many times in IRL has an entire party survived a battle with an adult+ dragon? Matthew McConaughey didn't. Sir Ralph Richardson didn't. Even Samuel L. Jackson got chewed up. (stretch the reference?)

Um...movies aren't real life.

Ribbing aside, I think it's very flawed to compare how a game session should go based on a movie or book results. Books and movies are scripted to be that way. I don't like my role playing to be scripted and pre determined.

 

[Blackwarder]

Archery would have made the fight a ton easier. The dragon only engaged in melee for a single round. That was when the paladin unleashed on it.

The dragon's lair actions allowed it to split up the battlefield and limit visibility. The lair also was difficult terrain, which made movement hard. Combine that with lair actions limiting visibility and creating barriers, it made it very hard to bring our attacks to bear on it. Archery would have canceled the mobility problems. That would have been nice.

I don't get it, why didn't the fighter and paladin had any bows with them?

Edit: and IMEX, concentration spells like fly should be cast on the character that would use it most efficiently, in this case either the fighter or the paladin, a wizard casting fly while fighting a dragon is just asking to be eaten.

Warder

 

[Celtavian]

I don't get it, why didn't the fighter and paladin had any bows with them?

Edit: and IMEX, concentration spells like fly should be cast on the character that would use it most efficiently, in this case either the fighter or the paladin, a wizard casting fly while fighting a dragon is just asking to be eaten.

Warder

They did. But they're not geared for using them. The fighter has a dex of 14. He fired one arrow and hit with a 20 for 12 points. The paladin has an 8 dex. He's not good with a bow. ACs are relatively low, but you still need to be geared for using a bow to do good damage.

I was going to cast fly on the fighter. He was hammered before I got to him. Breath weapons a few times. Lair actions of an average of 11 points a round. It did not help the breath weapon and lair actions dropped the life cleric in the first couple of rounds. 59 point breath weapon with a Con save and 3d6 per round AoE Lair action ate the cleric up quickly. With very little healing, hard to stay up with the all the incoming AoE damage.

We tried to spread out to avoid the breath weapon. That made it hard to buff. I had just cast the fly spell when the fighter went down to a second breath weapon attack for another 58 points. It got lucky on the breath recharge. That did not help at all.

There's a lot of going on when you lair and legendary actions coupled with the main attacks. Healing doesn't help much with AoE damage. Not strong enough healing at low level when you get hit for 58 and 59 points and you're AoE heal does 2d8+8 with a 3rd level slot. Not keeping up with the damage at all.

 

[Umbran]

Ribbing aside, I think it's very flawed to compare how a game session should go based on a movie or book results. Books and movies are scripted to be that way. I don't like my role playing to be scripted and pre determined.

They may not be pre-determined, but don't you figure that the game is likely built to model what one sees in movies or books? Do you think the designers somehow figure players aren't kind of expecting to have their games turn out sort of like movies and books?

This is not to say that all games will turn out with all PCs alive, and everyone happy - that's only one class of book/movie. But let us not kid ourselves that the mental image the play should generate isn't intended to be like other fantasy fiction.

 

[Sacrosanct]

They may not be pre-determined, but don't you figure that the game is likely built to model what one sees in movies or books? Do you think the designers somehow figure players aren't kind of expecting to have their games turn out sort of like movies and books?

This is not to say that all games will turn out with all PCs alive, and everyone happy - that's only one class of book/movie. But let us not kid ourselves that the mental image the play should generate isn't intended to be like other fantasy fiction.

Only insofar as the heroic imagery and exotic game worlds go. If you know the main good guy is always going to win (because good always ends up winning in the end), why have a random element in your game at all?

In books and movies, heroes are written and outcomes predetermined. In rpgs, heroes are made by player actions, often only after the first couple of heroes didn't make it.

 

[Celtavian]

Just to explain some of our thinking, in 3E/Pathfinder dragons would wait out buffs. Intelligent dragons wouldn't even bother engaging in a fight where they were at a disadvantage due to surprise or dealing with a party moving in for an ambush. They would note the scents of their attackers and leave knowing that most parties entering their lair were buffed up to fight them. The dragon waited a sufficient time to let buffs run out completely destroying the pre-buff strategy many parties use fighting powerful creatures. This strategy was effective because the dragon would then set up an ambush of its own fully buffed. The dragon didn't mind a party taking its treasure because it would track the enemy and kill them piecemeal if it needed to. Basically, in 3E/Pathfinder we made fighting a dragon supremely dangerous. You absolutely wanted to kill it rather than let it track you down and kill you at inopportune times seeking to regain its treasure.

This strategy in 5E leads to odd outcomes. Spells don't last near as long, so it is easier for dragons to wait out buffs. Casters don't have access to consumables and have fewer spell slots, so it's far easier for dragons to wait for resource depletion. So buffs generally have to be cast when we see the dragon. With concentration being as it is, when you see the dragon is too late. If you cast the spell prior to getting hammered by the breath weapon, you risk your concentration being broken. If you cast the spell prior to entry, you risk the dragon waiting out the duration of the spell. Given you can't protect even half your party from breath weapon damage due to concentration, you have plan who does what. We haven't figured that part out well enough yet.

We'll get there. We have to be more patient and plan spell deployment better. Draw the dragon into a fight while the fly spell is active. This was a particularly bad set up for us. We're not accustomed to the buffing limitations in 5E. It will take a bit of time to plan spell deployment given the limitations. That should lead to better outcomes...I hope.

 

[EroGaki]

Has anyone thought up effective methods for negating lair actions? Especially against dragons, why would some willingly engage against such a creature when it has those abilities? Better to wait for them to leave their little hidey holes, or draw them out than actually fight them. Especially when they have a bunch of cheesy legendary actions.

And I am forced to ask, do dragons ever actually leave their caves? It seems a big chunk of their deadliness is their home-field advantage.