Trying To Decide...

[billd91]

My question is: Should I bother to switch to 3.5? If so, how will I handle the overwhelming task of taking an epic party whose average level was 42nd, and re-making them in 3.5 format?!? Or, are there any well-known hybrids out there? (i.e., Keep the core 3.0 rules, and just adopt these 12 feats, these 9 spells, and these 18 items, etc. from the 3.5 system as add-ons)

The reason I am considering switch at all is because of the seemingly broken 3.0 ed epic combat system. Most of the fighter-types (everyone is multi-classed, no one is "straight fighter") end up with a total, adjusted attack bonus of around +50 or so when it's all said and done (feats, magic items, et.al.) Many of the monsters they fight have AC 65+, which means that their first attack with each hand (if they dual wield) hits about 25% of the time, and then all of their subsequent attacks pretty much miss unless they roll a 20. And there seems to be no way to bridge this gulf. So the fighter types call max power attack, and pray for lucky die rolls.

It seems to me, that epic-level fighters at some point need about 10 more points of Base Attack Bonus in order to be able to compete with the insane monster Armor Classes they keep encountering.

Does 3.5 have the same problem? I have heard that some people can concoct builds that hit AC 90 no sweat, which is MIND BOGGLING to me. AC 65 seems insurmountable, much less a 90! But my thought was, perhaps 3.5 has found a way to bridge that gap between AC and Attack Bonus? Or are the players making such claims playing with house rules and/or mis-interpreting the rules as written?

Does 3.5 have the same problem? Yes. Lots of games do when there are lots of choices PCs can make in their development over a long playing time. Players diverge, little by little, from a common power level and from the game's baseline expectations and it's up to the GM to chart a course to work for their player group. By the time you're a dozen levels in, there are pretty significant differences that can cause problems.

Since your players' PCs aren't heavily optimized and there seems to be no real will to re-optimize, it's up to you to pick or craft the right opponents for them to fight. If the fighter types are having trouble hitting even with their first attacks, cut down the monster's AC and/or hit points to the point you think you've got a better challenge for them. If the monsters are hitting too often and hard, cut down their attack bonuses (usually by trimming strength back several points).

As far as whether it's worthwhile to shift to 3.5, it is for some things but not for others. While I appreciated the simulationist goal behind weapon sizing in 3.5, it's more of a pain in the ass than a valuable addition to the game. Rangers and bards get some very nice improvements. Several spells that were fairly broken in 3.0 got nice fixes. On the other hand, the 3.5 change is a poster boy for unnecessary "project creep". Tons of spells got changes for no really good reason. It's a mixed bag. On the other hand, it's highly compatible. So you can fairly easily make a few changes to a 3.0 game, allow in some 3.5 materials, and have a hybrid game.

 

[Tellerian Hawke]

A Revelation (of sorts)...

The thought occurred to me yesterday: how does 3.5 handle epic levels?

I have been talking to people on my Facebook D&D group about 3.5 edition. One guy said that 3.5 ed had no Epic Level Handbook; he said that 3.5 did not address epic progression at all.

This is the same guy who claims that a 50th level character should be able to auto-hit AC 90 all day long. (We were discussing how one of the high level NPCs in my epic game seemed "weak" for his level. And that floored me!)

But then, the thought hit me: If 3.5 doesn't have specific epic rules, but on the other hand doesn't imply any restrictions on level attainment, how would one figure out the progression?

This morning, I did a little experiment. I assumed that I was a 40th level Fighter. Straight, no prestige classes, just plain-jane-ordinary Fighter.

If you're not looking at Epic Rules (i.e., if you're not using the Epic Level Handbook) then a 40th level Fighter has a Base Attack of +40.

By the ELH rules, that same Fighter would progress as a Fighter to 20th level (+20 Base) but as an "Epic Character" past that point, which would give him a Base Attack of +30 at 40th level!

There's the missing 10 points right there.

And you know, I am all for slowed progressions for the sake of maintaining some semblance of balance, but I don't think that monsters follow that same rule!

The bigger monsters (Outsiders, Dragons, etc.) all follow +1 per Hit Die progressions. A 40HD monster has a Base Attack of +40. Period.

Therefore, I think what is called for (in this one, specific area) is for the monsters to have the same progression as characters. If a 40 HD monster had a +30 Base Attack, the same as the 40th level Fighter, we'd be back on even terms again.

Thoughts?

 

[Celebrim]

This is the same guy who claims that a 50th level character should be able to auto-hit AC 90 all day long. (We were discussing how one of the high level NPCs in my epic game seemed "weak" for his level. And that floored me!)...Thoughts?

I think you are probably overthinking this.

Your question is probably best answered by visiting some of the 3.5 edition character optimization boards and looking at builds, or asking about CharOp from some of the system gurus that do that sort of thing (Dandu I know does 3.5 optimization from time to time).

Without actually knowing anything about this person you are talking to, I'd guess the person you are talking to is probably judging your epic characters against optimized 20th level 3.5 characters and judging them weak on that basis rather than making any particular assumptions regarding how 40th level characters work in 3.5e. I imagine that he's projecting what a 40th level character would be like from that basis, having seen on the CharOp boards 3.5 20th level characters with much larger numbers in terms of potential damage, ect. than your 3.0 40th level characters.

My assumption is that anyone playing 3.5 epic was probably using the 3.0 epic handbook, since that book was never updated. If there are any changes in 3.5 epic, they'd be in the SRD and I would guess would be quite small.

Personally, I would prefer that 40HD monsters only had +30 BAB the same as a 40th level fighter, because what I would desire is to minimize the range of bonuses seen for a given CR to avoid the sort of problems I mentioned earlier. However, confusing me further, that was my assumption about how it worked already. For example, if you click on my Slaad link, you'll see I list a 31HD outsider with a BAB of 25 rather than 31.

 

[billd91]

My assumption is that anyone playing 3.5 epic was probably using the 3.0 epic handbook, since that book was never updated. If there are any changes in 3.5 epic, they'd be in the SRD and I would guess would be quite small.

They did update the Epic level information for 3.5 as part of the SRD. Looks like each class got a bit of tweaking, but the slowed BAB is still there. Exactly how much has changed, I don't know. But it is available for free for the OP's own review.

 

[Tellerian Hawke]

Ok, just downloaded the SRD.

Under Improving Monsters, it says that Monstrous Humanoids advance as Fighters, +1/HD.

Now look at the Epic Monsters (G-W): It lists a Gloom, which is a Monstrous Humanoid, as 25 HD, and it says its Base Attack is +25.

If the monster followed Epic Progression, his Base Attack at 25 HD should be +23. And that's what a 25th level Fighter would have.

Thus, it is clear that monsters do not follow the Epic Progression.

2 Points seems a small difference at 25th level, but when you get out to 40th level, the disparity becomes blatantly obvious.

 

[Tellerian Hawke]

However, confusing me further, that was my assumption about how it worked already. For example, if you click on my Slaad link, you'll see I list a 31HD outsider with a BAB of 25 rather than 31.

According to what I am seeing, your Slaad should have +31. But kudos to you for keeping him even with Epic Progression!

 

[Celebrim]

According to what I am seeing, your Slaad should have +31. But kudos to you for keeping him even with Epic Progression!

Heh.

Well, let's just say that I agree that +1 BAB/2 HD makes sense as the progression above 20HD, and personally, I'd tend to follow that rule regardless of type. Of course, this would require quite a bit of rebalancing, but in my opinion, that could only improve things.

 

[Li Shenron]

The reason I am considering switch at all is because of the seemingly broken 3.0 ed epic combat system.

As far as I know, epic level rules didn't change much between 3.0 and 3.5. There might have been some update embedded in a supplement, but there never was an epic level handbook for 3.5 IIRC.

So my suggestion is to stay 3.0.

Personally I generally preferred 3.0 to 3.5, in fact back in the day we first switched to 3.5 and then reverted back to 3.0 after half a year.

But in any case, if you are more familiar to 3.0 rules, if you own more 3.0 books, and if your players aren't pushing you to switch, it is quite a lot better for you not to switch!

edit: ok so the epic rules update apparently was in the SRD rather than in a supplement... nevertheless AFAIK they didn't change significantly enough, but you could use the 3.5 epic rules while still keeping your game 3.0 in all other respects

 

[captnq]

Oh. Is that the problem? Not having the updated material?

Achoo!

 

[Tellerian Hawke]

Oh. Is that the problem? Not having the updated material?

No, I have the following books for 3.5: All three core books, Savage Species, Complete Warrior, Complete Arcane, and not sure if these were 3.0 or 3.5: BoED, BoVD, MM2, MM3, and Fiend Folio.

I am also considering purchases from DnDClassics, but I haven't made up my mind as to which ones I want yet.