D&D 5E Is "Mystic" a bad class name?

[Sword of Spirit]

However, I think the 3e/XPH quotes are a little out of context. Psionic-Magic Transparency at no point says Psionics IS magic,

From the back cover of the Expanded Psionics Handbook:

"Through sheer force force of will, a psionic character can unleash awesome powers that rival any physical force or magical energy. Within these pages, you will discover the secrets of unlocking the magic of the mind--the art of psionics."

I don't really have anything to debate here--the wording could be interpreted more figuratively than literally, given that it doesn't actually call psionics magic inside the book itself. But I think it's an important quote that I never see brought up in these discussions.

"Some speculate that psionic magic is a force that originates in the Far Realm and came into the universe with the sundering of the Living Gate."

I guess Psionics is from Far Realm has more D&D pedigree than the mystic name?

As long as they use those bolded words I'm fine with talking about a connection between psionics and the Far Realm in 5e. But I really want those words. It's heavy handed to say "psionics is related to the Far Realm" in 5e, and I don't like it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

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Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis
"Some speculate that psionic magic is a force that originates in the Far Realm and came into the universe with the sundering of the Living Gate."
I guess Psionics is from Far Realm has more D&D pedigree than the mystic name?
Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ic-quot-a-bad-class-name/page14#ixzz3gwmP9fxj
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As long as they use those bolded words I'm fine with talking about a connection between psionics and the Far Realm in 5e. But I really want those words. It's heavy handed to say "psionics is related to the Far Realm" in 5e, and I don't like it.

It's a theme running fairly consistently through 5e that it leaves things up to the DM, from the basic resolution system, on. While making psionics magic or not-magic by default, or making it "of the Far Realms' or not by default does not remove the DMs ability to decide to change it, leaving it open, with the addition of a few simple words puts the ball in the DMs court and re-enforces the theme of DM empowerment that is 5e's greatest asset.

 

[Remathilis]

From the back cover of the Expanded Psionics Handbook:

"Through sheer force force of will, a psionic character can unleash awesome powers that rival any physical force or magical energy. Within these pages, you will discover the secrets of unlocking the magic of the mind--the art of psionics."

I don't really have anything to debate here--the wording could be interpreted more figuratively than literally, given that it doesn't actually call psionics magic inside the book itself. But I think it's an important quote that I never see brought up in these discussions.

To be fair, my problem is when psionics gets labeled as magic, people naturally then want to hammer all the rules and restrictions of magic into it, which eventually dilutes psionicists into being "spellcasters". I'd rather avoid the terminology and the potential confusion and opt for something neutral like "supernatural" (as in; spells, psionics, rage, ki, and invocations are all supernatural, but they are not all magic).

As long as they use those bolded words I'm fine with talking about a connection between psionics and the Far Realm in 5e. But I really want those words. It's heavy handed to say "psionics is related to the Far Realm" in 5e, and I don't like it.

I'm hoping for a "some say" or "some believe" as well. It seems early, maybe WotC will hedge their bets (or at least provide a "other sources could include..." sentence).

 

[Yaarel]

Telepaths like Faerie Dragon seem inherently ‘mystic’ (psionic).

The 4e Eladrin Elf ‘enchanters’ might likewise be ‘mystics’.

How ‘mysticism’ fits into a setting depends on the setting.



I would rather the reference to Far Realm remains absent from psionics.

The only setting that needs to explain how psionics interacts with the Far Realm, is the Far Realm setting.

 

[Tony Vargas]

To be fair, my problem is when psionics gets labeled as magic, people naturally then want to hammer all the rules and restrictions of magic into it, which eventually dilutes psionicists into being "spellcasters".

Psionics can 'be' magic to the extent that, say, they become un-useable in an anti-magic field, without slipping all the way down that slippery slope to psionicists using V/S/M components and a spell slot to cast Tower of the Iron Will.

I'd rather avoid the terminology and the potential confusion and opt for something neutral like "supernatural" (as in; spells, psionics, rage, ki, and invocations are all supernatural, but they are not all magic).

Rage isn't necessarily supernatural. In 3e it was an 'EX' ability, for instance - if it were supernatural in 5e, BTW, that'd remove the Berserker from the already very short list of sub-classes w/o supernatural powers...

I'm hoping for a "some say" or "some believe" as well. It seems early, maybe WotC will hedge their bets (or at least provide a "other sources could include..." sentence).

Yes, keep the players guessing.

 

[Yaarel]

It seems possible to define psionics as a kind of ‘magic’ that can function in an antimagic zone, but that otherwise follows normal rules for magic.

This would help emphasize how it is unrelated to ‘spellcasting’.

The ability to manifest within an antimagic zone would simply be a specific rule trumping a general rule.

 

[Cleon]

It seems possible to define psionics as a kind of ‘magic’ that can function in an antimagic zone, but that otherwise follows normal rules for magic.

This would help emphasize how it is unrelated to ‘spellcasting’.

The ability to manifest within an antimagic zone would simply be a specific rule trumping a general rule.

That approach raises all kinds of balance issues which I believe is the main reason 3E used "psionics = magic" as the default.

It's a great advantage to the psionicist if their abilities are not countered, hampered or even detected by abilities that stymie magic. You can wail away at a spellcaster in an antimagic field without your target being able to cast anything back at you. If some of these "vs. magic" abilities work against psionics and others do it can quickly get burdensome in play remembering which is which.

If the rules had some clear distinction between "magic" that includes psionics and "spells" that exclude psionics it might be playable. Then a creature with "magic resistance" would have it protect against psionic attacks. Under such a rule, a creature with a "counter-spell" ability would not be able to use it to disrupt a psionicist's discipline-weaving, but one with dispel magic could.

That seems doable.

 

[Cleon]

I would rather the reference to Far Realm remains absent from psionics.

The only setting that needs to explain how psionics interacts with the Far Realm, is the Far Realm setting.

Personally, I have no objection to the Far Realms becoming part of the core D&D setting, but I really dislike the idea of Psionics being from the Far Realms or a response to the Far Realms' intrusion.

If it was up to me, I'd do something like this:

Psionics is the power of thought manifesting into reality. It is literally mind over matter. In the most potent cases, mind becomes matter.

The Far Realms is impossible and insane. A place that cannot exist in D&D reality according to its natural and magical laws. However the idea of the Far Realms can exist. That's no different from someone in the real world imagining a perpetual motion machine, despite them violating fundamental physics. They just can't build one.

However, in the D&D universe the power of psionics allows an idea to become real, and that's the route by which the Far Realms "encroached" into the Prime Material. The actual details of the encroachment could be left unsaid or speculative. Maybe a lot of latent psionicists dreamed of the Far Realms at the same time and it got a toehold? Maybe the universe's most powerful psychics went exploring and tried to astral travel to a plane that couldn't actually exist and their combined mental abilities were so potent that what the created or linked to a dimension they thought might be there?

 

[GreenTengu]

To be fair, my problem is when psionics gets labeled as magic, people naturally then want to hammer all the rules and restrictions of magic into it, which eventually dilutes psionicists into being "spellcasters". I'd rather avoid the terminology and the potential confusion and opt for something neutral like "supernatural" (as in; spells, psionics, rage, ki, and invocations are all supernatural, but they are not all magic).

That has to be better than having no rules or restrictions on it whatsoever and to completely ignore all defenses against supernatural powers just because you call it something slightly different.

If it breaks the rules of reality with nothing but one's will and words, it is in fact a sort of magic. Seriously, go look up the term "magic" and say that it doesn't apply. Psionics are just a way of having magic in sci-fi stories. But the D&D worlds lack the scientific instruments to explain them in any sort of scientific way so all the terminology that has ever been applied to it has always been highly out of place-- if they could, they would explain other magics in a similar way I'd wager. Burning hands and fireball would likely be called "pyrokinesis" is such a concept existed.

Now, it may be separate from Arcane magic and Divine magic as a third type, but it is still some sort of magic... In fact, I am not even sure it should be entirely separate from Divine magic just instead of being channeled from a god, you are harnessing that divinity within yourself and manipulating the divine sparks of other beings around you.

 

[Remathilis]

That has to be better than having no rules or restrictions on it whatsoever and to completely ignore all defenses against supernatural powers just because you call it something slightly different.

If it breaks the rules of reality with nothing but one's will and words, it is in fact a sort of magic. Seriously, go look up the term "magic" and say that it doesn't apply. Psionics are just a way of having magic in sci-fi stories. But the D&D worlds lack the scientific instruments to explain them in any sort of scientific way so all the terminology that has ever been applied to it has always been highly out of place-- if they could, they would explain other magics in a similar way I'd wager. Burning hands and fireball would likely be called "pyrokinesis" is such a concept existed.

Now, it may be separate from Arcane magic and Divine magic as a third type, but it is still some sort of magic... In fact, I am not even sure it should be entirely separate from Divine magic just instead of being channeled from a god, you are harnessing that divinity within yourself and manipulating the divine sparks of other beings around you.

Psionics (as it stands right now) main weakness is the wonky concentration rules, since EVERYTHING they do is concentration-based. Ergo, the easiest way to break a psionic effect is to break the mystic using it. It doesn't appear there will be any rules for long-term effects independent of the mystic, so dispel magic and detect magic aren't even all that useful when dealing with them. Then again, we've probably seen 1/10th of the system...

As for the rest, my resistance to labeling it magic is that when you do, you start to imply a lot of magic-rules onto it. If its magical, can you detect or dispel it? Does it work in anti-magic, dead magic, or wild magic zones? Does Magic Resistance apply? What about a raksasha's magic immunity? Can you use it to make magic items? What if I get a wand of the war mage (which adds +1 to my spell attacks) does it work with psionics? Can a psionic character use scrolls? Can he attune to a wand of polymorph or a wand of paralysis (prereq: Any spellcaster)? Could a mystic/sorcerer use metamagic with psionics? Can a bard learn psionics with Magical Secrets?

By starting with a position that is not magic but something equally supernatural, you avoid assumptions. It sets its own rules that way. In appearance, they look like magic, but they are something else entirely.