D&D 5E GWF vs. TWF Fighting styles

[Prism]

Magic items aren't impossible to calculate for - their quite easy. For example you can add '1' in the hit and damage rows of each build.

I, personally, do not recommend using +X magic items. I just remove the +X part and keep the rest.

Its the randomness that's hard to predict and best leaving out. However I know that if I create a TWF character I am likely to have two magic longswords by high level, a GWF would likely have a single magic weapon and a polearm user might well have none. And often those weapons won't be plussed weapons but things like flame tongues, scimitars of speed, swords of sharpness, intelligent swords and even artifacts. This all assume that we use items and tables from the DMG of course. Custom stuff can be anything.

 

[Kryx]

If a group uses magic items then a DM should accommodate all builds, not just the most standard weapon choices.

 

[Xeviat]

As I said earlier, at 20th level, a two short sword fighter only equals a great sword fighter against a single target if they are using +20 weapons. The extra 8.5+enhancement damage from short sword and +5 modifier is going against an extra ~5 damage per hit from the great sword.

If we assume magic items, and assume a magic item economy like 3E, and we assume that both characters have the same number of magic items (let's say two magic shortswords vs a magic great sword and a belt of giant strength), we may be able to balance them with the twfer getting 2 attacks for every one gwfer's. But that's a lot of assumptions.

 

[Xeviat]

If a group uses magic items then a DM should accommodate all builds, not just the most standard weapon choices.

And yes, 100% yes. If a magic halberd isn't showing up in random treasure, throw one on a lieutenant or let them go on a quest. Don't balance things by saying "rare styles are going to be fair items".

 

[Kryx]

@Xev I saw a mention of making TWF not cost a bonus action in the other thread. It's a decent idea to boost Fighter and Ranger TWF. Though TWF would still need a boost at 11 from either Rend or second bonus attack.

 

[Xeviat]

@Xev I saw a mention of making TWF not cost a bonus action in the other thread. It's a decent idea to boost Fighter and Ranger TWF. Though TWF would still need a boost at 11 from either Rend or second bonus attack.

I crunched the numbers real quick for the fighter, because they're the one I care about the most at the moment. Just dealing with an individual action (now that action surge will be balanced). At the following levels, base damage, assuming ability growth at 4 and 8 and +x weapons at 12, 16, and 20 (as this favors twfing), twfing differs from gwfing by:

Level 1: +2
Level 4: +3
Level 5: -2
Level 8: -1
Level 11: -6
Level 12: -5
Level 16: -4
Level 20: -7

Up till level 11, I wouldn't worry about the difference. That's good, because most of the others don't get a third attack. But the fighter still needs something at level 11. My assumptions are thrown for a loop because of the twfer gets two magic weapons, the gwfer probably should get a belt of giant strength along with their magic weapon; that would skew the numbers way off if you can toss on a 22 str belt.

Personally, I wouldn't want to fix it with a feat, because feats should be balanced against other feats. I'd like to add something to the Extra Attack (2). But it can't be a whole second offhand attack, as an attack is dealing 8.5 damage at this point, and they're only behind by 6. Letting them be a little ahead wouldn't be the worst. But with the scaling magic weapon, they'd end up 5 ahead at level 20, and I don't think cries would favor the gwfer enough.

 

[psychophipps]

Yes, it does.
See GWF Paladin Reroll 1s & 2s on Divine Smite? I was against it. I was wrong.

Without it applying on additional dice Defensive Fighting Style is much better for Paladin and Battle Master.

Thanks, Kryx! I had a bad feeling it would when it got mentioned in the group Hangout. Not really sure how it helps balance the game as my single-weapon Paladin had zero issues with cranking out redunkulous damage without the Dualist fighting style, but Oh Well...

 

[Xeviat]

I thought a tweet said gwfing bonus was supposed to only apply to the weapon. Maybe I was dreaming.

 

[Kryx]

@Xeviat: By my RAW numbers TWF is behind GWM by 45 to 66 at 20.

With Rend and without -5/+10 Fighter TWF is 54 vs 58 at 20.

The problem with a second bonus attack is that a Fighter could use it to trip instead of attacking - it would likely cause more DPR at that usage which is why I lean toward Rend (Rend is also less prone to vary based on class as it's based on Proficiency bonus)

Agreed that it shouldn't be with a feat, but an inherent fix to TWF (which suffers for all classes - Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin)

I thought a tweet said gwfing bonus was supposed to only apply to the weapon. Maybe I was dreaming.

Mearls has answered that question in both ways. It is irrelevant
No: https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/518076687439785984?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
Yes: https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/634167899943399424?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

 

[Xeviat]

Your numbers are very close to mine, likely higher because you're incorporating crits, right? I have 65 vs 58, without crits or misses and with +3 weapons.