D&D 5E Design Debate: 13th-level PCs vs. 6- to 8-Encounter Adventuring Day

[Celtavian]

Yes, it would be interesting. I haven't run many theorycrafted combats lately because I'm too busy working on tools for running them. (You have noticed in this thread that trying to keep track of action declarations/resolutions/stats for 8 or 10 creatures and share them over the Internet with an audience is extremely time-consuming, and adding an extra 16 summons would just make that problem exponentially worse. So I've been distracted for the past month and a half trying to make a web app that will solve that problem.)

I know we've had our differences in the past but I've really enjoyed reading your thoughts on this thread. Hiding behind hypnotized wolves for cover is pure gold.

Anyway, my notional party for this challenge would probably depend upon what stats I rolled, but a quick sketch of a party that would be fun to play is:

Paladin of Devotion 9/Wild Sorc 3/Warlock 1 with Extended/Quicken metamagics (for super-healing), Cha 20, and Lucky. Warhorse's name is Claudius.
Cthulock 2/Lore Bard 11 with Cha 20, Inspiring Leader, Agonizing Repelling Blast, and Magical Secrets: Aura of Vitality/Conjure Animals/Death Ward/Counterspell.
Necromancer 12/Life Cleric 1 with Str 15, Int 20, Warcaster, and Mobile.
Death Monk 13 with Mobile, Lucky, and Dex 18/Wis 18.

Fifth PC, if any, is likely to be a Mobile Sentinel Moon Druid because somebody usually rolls low, and Moon Druids are fun no matter how low your stats are. Also, that adds some more summoning power and Pass Without Trace. If not a Moon Druid then probably some kind of Sharpshooter fighter.

Ideal prep beforehand would include at least a couple of bound Air or Earth Elementals, but it depends upon how much money the party has.

That would be a helpful app.

I just love intense debate, a little too much for many tastes. I never dislike anyone or hold any grudges against the people I'm in discussions with. I always enjoyed your tactical viewpoint, though I still want to use the necromancer idea in some campaign where it would be role-play appropriate. The idea of skeleton squad following me about is amusing.

I enjoy seeing the different way people do things. I enjoy reading Iserith and Flamestrike's encounter design because it is different from mine. I know you have your ideas about encounter design that are different from all of ours. Even Iserith and Flamestrike who agree about the 6-8 encounter day being sufficient have different ways of building the encounters and running them. That's what makes coming to a board so interesting. You get to see all these different ideas that all seem to accomplish the same task: having fun playing D&D. Rarely are two tables alike. It shows how creative D&D players are and how much the game inspires creative thinking in so many. As geeky as some think this game is, I'd bet money if you ran tests on the creativity of D&D players, you would find a much higher level of creative thinking in the group as a whole because the game requires it. Then you would likely get sample bias because the game in general attracts creative thinkers with highly active imaginations because that is the target audience. If you can't imagine the scenes in your mind's eye, even if they're more scenes from a video game, then D&D is hard to enjoy.

Keep on theory-crafting, Hemlock. It's generally interesting to read.

 

[BoldItalic]

Cost to the Party
32 damage to the Paladin, 45 damage to the Wizard.
Slots used: Bard 1(3rd), Paladin 1(1st), Wizard 1(5th).

If the party take a short rest on the way to the next encounter, the Wizard can recover his 5th-level spell slot and spend 7 hit dice to recover (on average) 39 hit points and be only 6hp below full health. The Paladin can expect to regain 28hp if he spends 5 hit dice and be only 4hp down. Using the hit dice at this stage is preferable to using potions or healing spells that might be needed later during combat and, also, there is likely to be at most one more short rest before the end, so spending as much as half your hit dice now is not unreasonable.

 

[Celtavian]

Encounter 3

Encounter 3:

Encounter conditions: Same as the rest of the demi-plane.

Encounter environment: The PCs enter a 40'x40' room,with exits to the north, east, west and south. They enter via the southern entrance. The exits to the east and west are twisting corridors that lead to 40'x40' rooms of their own. The northern passage leads further into the dungeon.

Creatures: Patrolling between the three rooms is an Iron Golem, its elemental spirit corrupted by the Elder Elemental Eye after it was sucked into the demiplane from Keraptis lair. Reduce its hit points by 50 (to 160) to acount for damage sustained in the transition to the demi-plane, but due to its rage, the Golem can dash or make an additional slam attack as a bonus action on its turn. Its CR remains unaltered.

As soon as a a PC enters this room, check their passive perception. Those with a passive perception of 15 or higher notices a clanking sound coming from the eastern exit. Give the party 12 seconds to decide upon a course of action, and a further few seconds to narrate it to you before the Golem emerges. Decrease the DC to hear the incoming Golem to 10 the following round, but reduce any time to plan or react to 6 seconds.

The round after, the golem bursts into the room and attacks in a berzerk rage.

It patrols between the three rooms, appearing in this room every minute or so. Once it notices the PC's it attacks as noted above. It cannot be reasoned with, pursues the party throughout the dungeon, and fights to the death.

DMs notes. Its anticipated that most parties will have 1-2 rounds advance warning to either set up an ambush for the Golem or to avoid it entirely (assuming they head down the northern corridor and not the western one in order to avoid the Golem - a party that heads west will instead be cornered in the dead end). A party who obtains surprise on the golem should be able to finish it off inside of a single round or two at worst. This encounter rewards stealthy PCs who focus on scouting and swift planning and decisive action.

If the party take too long deciding how to best deal with the Golem, they face a stand up fight with the creature.

Encounter difficulty: 15,000 XP - 'medium'

 

[Celtavian]

Adventure Synopsis

Adventure Synopsis

In short: The PCs are hired to undo a catastrophic magical accident that has unleashed a godly nihilistic force into the realm.

Adventure Background: A band of NPC adventurers recently entered white plume mountain to recover three (stolen) magical weapons – Wave, Whelm and Blackrazor. After battling though the devious traps of the mad arch mage Keraptis, they located the greatsword blackrazor and placed it into a recently acquired bag of holding for safekeeping. Little did our intrepid heroes know however, but the bag of holding wasn’t actually a bag of holding – it was instead a bag of devouring – an extra dimensional space holding a being of entropy of great power.

As if that wasn’t bad enough, blackrazor isn’t really a greatsword either. It is in fact an extra dimensional space of its own, a rift in reality shaped like a sword that holds prisoner the greatest atropal (an undead creature of immense power) that is capable of snuffing out the entire multiverse.

When the two extra dimensional spaces came into contact with each other, the resulting shockwave released the atropal (whose first action was ironically devouring the creature in the bag of devouring) and opened a rift in space/ time neatly destroying White Plume Mountain (and much of the countryside) in the process. The atropal (which still refers to itself as ‘blackrazor’ is still trapped in the dimensional rift; but its power grows daily. If allowed to grow stronger, it will break free completely, enlarging the rift in the process, and bring about the end of the multiverse - with all of reality doomed to fall into the event horizon of the dimensional tear.

Enter the PCs.

The realms Wizard has (via divination magic) found out that something bad has happened and the mountain is in ruin (possibly a volcanic eruption) and there is now a strange vortex in its place. He fears that whatever destroyed the mountain has freed the atropal in Blackrazor. If this is the case, there isn’t much time remaining before the atropal escapes from the vortex… he estimates around 5 Hours to be precise.

He gives the PCs the co-ordinates to a teleportation circle near White Plume Mountain (and warns the PCs that it’s the lair of a dracolich… which he is pretty sure has moved on. Pretty sure…) and sends them on their way.

The PCs must then fight or negotiate with the inhabitants of the dracoliches lair, undertake the 2 hour journey to the (now smoking crater) that once was white plume mountain, and enter the dimensional rift. From there, they face a number of challenges including rampaging constructs, horrible aberrations and fiends, a githyanki war party looking for a sword of their own, and even the mad Wizard Keraptis himself before finally confronting Blackrazor in his lair.


Commentary This adventure hook is great. Love the creativity, especially on the fly. Not sure if Flamestrike has used this before, but what a great hook and creative use of a classic adventure. I have to admit if a DM pitched this to me, I might tolerate our different play-styles to give it a run. The hook would sound like great fun.

 

[Celtavian]

Description of Set Up and Planar Restrictions

As noted above, after the PCs kill or subdue the giants, they face a 2 hour journey to the Mountain (or whats left of it).

Smart PCs should attempt to shorten this journey by any means possible in order to allow more short rest opportunities in the Demi planar rift upon arrival.

As the PCs journey to the mountain, they can immediately see it is no more. The sky over the mountains remains is dark as if something is sucking the light out of the sky. The party passes flattened trees on the way to the mountain; knocked flat as if by a giant explosion, only facing towards the mountain - as if some massive implosion has drawn them towards the scene of the carnage.

Upon reaching the mountain, the PCs quickly find the dimensional rift that houses the Atropal. It appears as an inky black swirling vortex that seems to draw matter and light into its central core. Appropriate diviniation magic, arcana or investigation checks identify it as a planar rift, and that it leads to a demi plane of sorts. Sufficiently high arcana checks identify that the plane to which it leads to is a 'plane between the planes' with no connection to the ethereal plane once iside (although astral travel is possible from the demi plane). The PCs may also be able to determine what created it (the interaction of a bag of devouring with an equally powerful dimensional space holding an equally potent extra planar being) with appropriate checks or magic (DMs call).

Any PC that enters the plane cannot leave unless via the astral plane, or via plane shift, or if the Atropal is slain. As the demiplane is a different plane, any familiars that are sent in to scout the plane cannot report back to the PCs (although once the PCs are in the plane, the familiars can scout as normal).

The interior of the plane appears as a dungeon of sorts with 10' wide passages and floors, ceilings and walls are made of some kind of virtually indestructible black stone that seems to absorb light and sound (a form of dark matter). The entire demiplane is shrouded by a magical dim light (treat as a 9th level spell) that even darkvision cannot pierce. Creatures without darkvision cannot see more than 30’ in the darkness, and creatures with darkvision can see up to the range of their darkvision (60’ or 120’) however even then the PCs vision is shrouded in darkness (advantage to stealth checks to hide). Devils sight works normally.

For the purposes of this experiment, the dungeon itself is not mapped, the individual encounter areas are.

I'll post subsequent encounters every 24 hours or so, leaving us all with time to discuss the encounters as they take place.

Commentary This is what I was looking for. I recalled that Flamestrike indicated that once we entered, there was no coming out. This would make using summoned creatures more difficult because once they are inside, they can't come outside to report to you. You can't change commands until you enter. So you have to give them instructions upon entering to disperse and clear the room. Then you have to decide how long before you enter once you determine your summoned creatures cannot return and communicate with you. Once you're in, you're in. Not an uncommon feature of planar rifts.

 

[Celtavian]

Pre-encounter Questions

Flamestrike,

The gnome will Investigate the Planar Rift with assistance from Jubali and Dom. His Passive Investigation is 25 with Observation. If you don't allow Passive Investigation, what kind of bonus will you give me for the Observation feat for the Passive Investigation bonus. His knowledge Arcane is +10 with advantage for assistance from Jubali.

Seebo's Arcana rolls with assistance from Jubali: (17,4) 27
Seebo's Investigation with assistance if you require a roll: (4,9) 19 (25 if Passive Investigation allowed) with whatever bonus for Observation if you don't allow Passive Investigation. Given Iserith and I's discussion, I understand some DM's don't allow Passive Investigation checks. That seriously undermines the Observation feat. I feel some kind of bonus should be given if a feat is to be weakened by disallowing Passive Investigation.

Dom's knowledge religion check: (12)+5=17

Questions I have:
Will the rift itself kill us if we enter?
What are the negative effects of entering the rift?
Any unusual traits we should be aware of?
Is the rift itself alive?

If I can determine if this thing will kill us or not, that will affect how I go about entering.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Commentary This is what I was looking for. I recalled that Flamestrike indicated that once we entered, there was no coming out. This would make using summoned creatures more difficult because once they are inside, they can't come outside to report to you. You can't change commands until you enter. So you have to give them instructions upon entering to disperse and clear the room. Then you have to decide how long before you enter once you determine your summoned creatures cannot return and communicate with you. Once you're in, you're in. Not an uncommon feature of planar rifts.

Yep, I assumed as much. Otherwise I'd have spent more time talking about using a familiar or Paladin's warhorse to scout things out before moving through the vortex; but I figure, if you know you're going through anyway (because the world will end if you don't) you might as well go through instead of dithering around worrying why the familiar didn't come back. (BTW, I think you could still get information out by sending in the familiar/steed, possibly invisible, to reconnoiter and then re-summoning the familiar/steed afterward, but that burns time and resources without changing the basic fact that you still have to go through the portal eventually.)

If it weren't for the five-hour time limit (not even enough time to reconfigure spells memorized) I would be a lot more cautious about entering the portal.

It still makes sense to go through staggered though, using summoned creatures as your point guard. Because I'm not real fond of killing, I'd send the creatures in with orders that will keep them from killing any hypothetical women or children immediately on the other side of the gate, while still presenting enough of a threat to trigger any hostile creatures (e.g. Death Slaads should launch a Fireball as soon as five or six Giant Owls are through the portal). If I were using zombies I'd send them in with similar orders (possibly disguised with Seeming) to grapple instead of kill. Then when the PCs show up a round or so later, we're in a good position to either negotiate (with nonhostiles) or kill (hostile enemies).

Of course the DM might declare that there's something wrong with the demiplane and that summoned creatures poof out of existence once they get there. I'll worry about that if it happens though. I'd still have Animated Objects to fall back on, as well as the actual PCs.

 

[BoldItalic]

Before entering the Rift with his friends, Edward the Diviner casts True Seeing on himself, which gives him Truesight for 1 hour. This uses his only 6th-level slot. His Expert Divination school feature allows him to regain a 5th-level slot (he had used two - one to operate the teleport focus and one to mesmerise the giant - and only regained one during the short rest) which he uses immediately to refresh the Rary's Telepathic Bond that expired during the two-hour journey from the giants' cave to the mountain. Now, whatever he sees with Truesight can be instantly conveyed as telepathic images to the others.

 

[iserith]

Seebo's Investigation with assistance if you require a roll: (4,9) 19 (25 if Passive Investigation allowed) with whatever bonus for Observation if you don't allow Passive Investigation. Given Iserith and I's discussion, I understand some DM's don't allow Passive Investigation checks. That seriously undermines the Observation feat. I feel some kind of bonus should be given if a feat is to be weakened by disallowing Passive Investigation.

On the contrary, I do not "disallow" passive Investigation checks. (I don't know what "disallow" here means to be honest. The players don't use checks - the DM does.) If you want to gain the benefit of not getting a result of 9 or lower on the die and want the bonus from Observant to kick in, then you have to perform the task repeatedly which takes time, a precious resource in this scenario. Anyone helping would be taking the same time. While engaged in this task, the character are at risk from threats if the investigation is sufficiently distracting. If on the other hand, you spend 10 times the amount of time necessary to have a chance of finding some clues, you just succeed with no check, passive or otherwise.

 

[Celtavian]

On the contrary, I do not "disallow" passive Investigation checks. (I don't know what "disallow" here means to be honest. The players don't use checks - the DM does.) If you want to gain the benefit of not getting a result of 9 or lower on the die and want the bonus from Observant to kick in, then you have to perform the task repeatedly which takes time, a precious resource in this scenario. Anyone helping would be taking the same time. While engaged in this task, the character are at risk from threats if the investigation is sufficiently distracting. If on the other hand, you spend 10 times the amount of time necessary to have a chance of finding some clues, you just succeed with no check, passive or otherwise.

That's more understandable than what I was thinking. So we just think differently for how long something would take. We'll see how Flamestrike runs it. For me it would depend on how obvious the information was.