D&D 5E Sorcerer Vs Wizard And Why its Closer Than You Think

[CapnZapp]

Sure [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] - I just wanted to remind everyone how the OP seemed to forget the sheer nova power of the Sorcerer, and how, for some games, that's plenty enough.

 

[5ekyu]

Sure [MENTION=6919838]5ekyu[/MENTION] - I just wanted to remind everyone how the OP seemed to forget the sheer nova power of the Sorcerer, and how, for some games, that's plenty enough.

The "game being played" is imo the single biggest factor in "balance" or stronger vs weaker etc... The key to value has always been (in my experience) the things you need to do (type of challenges) and then what you can do to address or resolve those.

In many games, nova power is key, for others not so much, for many it varies a lot etc.

Tbe last game i played in, we got a lot of "ninja beast" attacks where no matter what we did we got jumped from nowhere by heavy hp enenies at belt buckle ranges - our most common challenge in fact for the life of the game.

So my sorc was great there with no prep no plan quick kills being the norm plus metamagic and divine soul Healing.

But when it came to things i wanted to have fun with like controls, illusions, divinations - just not enough slots.

Character was most fun for the non-caster background stuff and social but most effective (or even effective at all) in far fewer cases.

But, really, it was fine after i just decided "do what i want" more than as much "do what we need".

Shoulda done gnome wizard i think.

 

[Ashrym]

All that may be true, but in a combat intensive game like D&D, all that pales in comparison to the Sorcerer's ability to nova.

So while a Wizard might have much more utility, and ultimately be the more satisfying spellcaster to play, it cannot kill off foes with the sheer brutality of a Sorcerer.

So underpowered my ass.

I agree with the above. Nova power is high on sorcerers. It's a draw to the class.

A basic wizard will likely have most of the following spell abilities:

1. AOE blasting
2. AOE control
3. Single Target Damage
4. Single Target Control
5. Defensive spells
6. Mobility Spells
7. Exploration Spells
8. Social Spells
9. Combat buff spells

1. maybe
2. maybe
3. maybe
4. maybe
5. I do.
6. probably not
7. probably not
8. Why bother? high CHA
9. maybe. Twinned haste is good, for example.

There is no question that spell options are limited compared to a wizard. I take alter self and enhance ability (not available to wizards) as 2nd level spells to apply some utility, shield, sleep, and usually burning hands. Usually firebolt and 3 utility cantrips. That's fine at low levels.

For what a lot of spells do I just rely on skills and equipment just like other classes. It's less of a "have not" and more of a "have less" scenario comparing utility magic to skills and equipment. Some people might want more but it works well for me.

I consider the level where you might be really interested in casting a defensive spell to be level 3 as you have enough spell slots to do some offense and defense if you want. So that means for this comparison the level 3 sorcerer is only going to have 2 spells to choose from. At least one of those needs to be a combat spell and likely both.

No, because I rely on cantrips at 3rd level, just like a wizard does. My 2nd level spell at 3rd level goes to utility and I continue to rely on cantrips and 1st level spells for combat.

Preparing 2 more spells than the sorcerer knows doesn't allow for casting more 2nd level spell slots while choosing scalable 1st level spells known can give variety in the use of those 2nd level slots.

In short, a level 3 sorcerer doesn't have enough slots to do anything outside of combat if he's trying to keep up the wizard in combat. Metamagic doesn't offer anything of great use at this level either.

The sorcerer doesn't have the slots to do much outside of combat but neither does the wizard. Slots are limited enough that spending them outside limits spending them in combat. More spells known does not equal more slots available.

Not spending slots outside of combat does not equal not having options outside of combat. That gets back to skills and equipment.

At level 5 there is a little improvement. If the sorcerer primarily relies on only 2 offensive combat spells then he now has 2 spells he can use for some kind of utility. He also gets enough sorcerery points and spell slots and spells that will function will with metamagic by this level to actually make metamagic somewhat meaningful.

Yes. Where I disagree is the need for more offensive or defensive spells prior to this level.

However, keeping this in perspective the wizard by level 5 literally has at least 14 spells known. He can prepare about 9. That leaves him 3 extra spells he can cast than you (not counting his rituals). If he uses them for combat then he has a spell that will work great in almost any situation. Because of his rituals he keeps a lot of out of combat usefulness even while only keeping the same number of utility spells prepared as you.

Maybe later on, but by level 5 I don't see how anyone can claim the sorcerer is nearly as powerful as the wizard.

Wizards don't prepare many more spells than sorcerers know until they are getting into double digit levels. If rituals were really all that then optimizers would be promoting the feat all over the place. As it is, ritual caster can be replaced by a feat but metamagic cannot. That is because metamagic is a far more potent feature.

Where issues come in is players want thematic spells at every spell level. That isn't possible. Spell mastery is also crazy good. Wizard's wish they could metamagic high level spells like sorcerers do, however; including the wish spell.

 

[cbwjm]

I fully agree and any DM worth playing with will be open to allowing either a metamagic that changes the element, a player to pick any spell element (aka chromatic orb) for any evocation spell as a flat change, or learn alternative damage element versions of spells. This doesn't help with adventurers league though and that they dropped the ball on making a metamagic or a at least making a ranged cantrip ot every damage type for a class with a d6 health, low armor and where like 90% of all builds want to be at range is frankly frustrating.



The issue isnt that they cant do it, it is that they...a charisma caster, are quite lack luster at it compared to the bard, warlock, or trickery cleric, or illusionist/enchanter wizard. The former two are at least understandable being charisma as well especially the hard whom is practically specialized at it, but the latter two are better purely due to a better spell list and subclasses devoted to it. We need a fae/hag/genie origin devoted to manipulated to beguiling people for the sorcerer in official print asap!

Additionally, this class despairity is only made even worse if you've a DM who likes to house rules that one can try to hide their spells by whispering, rolling deception checks, etc. as it directly steps on the toes of the ONE thing a manipulative sorcerer can actually do that's unique: cast spells without somatic/verbal components using subtle spell. Or even more frustrating if a DM likes to house houserule that a subtle spell can be counterspelled. While both are not problems for every table I have seen both in actual play more than once.



There is also the shadow hound ability from shadow sorcerer, and the 6th level dragon ability for gaining resistance to your element for an hour (a laughable ability considering that half of their sorcerer friendly races already have resistance to the element they'd be thematically inclined to take already). The latter should have been flat resistance or a point to gain immunity for a minute.

I also find it very odd that Devine soul does not get to pick between empowered healing or a respective but opposite damage ability, seeing as half of their proposed heritages come from questionably evil sources in final print. The concept of a chaotic evil fiendish sorcerer divine soul who specializes in damage spells and knows inflict wounds from their bloodline having empowered healing spells is kind of odd.

Oh man, I totally forgot about the dragon sorcerer resistance ability. I normally ignore it, often just by going dragonborn which already has it as part of the racial package. It really is a wasted ability and I would be fine with turning it into full resistance.

 

[Dausuul]

This. The thing to know about the sorcerer is that it's not the historical version and it really doesn't quite do what it says on the tin.

Yeah, that's my real problem with sorcerers. It isn't that there's anything wrong with the class, per se. With the right selection of single-target buffs and debuffs, coupled with Twin Spell, a sorcerer can be a powerhouse. And Subtle Spell on top of being a Cha-primary class makes them very effective in social scenarios as well.

But the way the class presents itself, at least in the PHB, is Blaster McBlasterson. Want to blow stuff up? Play a sorcerer. Except, don't, because you won't actually be very effective in that role. A fiend-pact warlock is far superior when it comes to raw damage output. An evoker is about on par with the sorcerer for damage and is far more versatile.

I don't think it's a bad class, I just wish they would present it in a way that showcases its true strengths.

 

[gyor]

A basic wizard will likely have most of the following spell abilities:

1. AOE blasting
2. AOE control
3. Single Target Damage
4. Single Target Control
5. Defensive spells
6. Mobility Spells
7. Exploration Spells
8. Social Spells
9. Combat buff spells

A specific sorcerer on the other hand doesn't get enough slots to really do half the things mentioned above. Assuming one is making a sorcerer that will be as good or better in combat than a wizard then the sorcerer will want Shield and Absorb elements at least by the time you have enough spell slots that you can justify casting them, because if the sorcerer doesn't take those spells he will be a lot more fragile than any given wizard. This leaves the sorcerer to fewer spells known to worry about picking from.

I consider the level where you might be really interested in casting a defensive spell to be level 3 as you have enough spell slots to do some offense and defense if you want. So that means for this comparison the level 3 sorcerer is only going to have 2 spells to choose from. At least one of those needs to be a combat spell and likely both.

In short, a level 3 sorcerer doesn't have enough slots to do anything outside of combat if he's trying to keep up the wizard in combat. Metamagic doesn't offer anything of great use at this level either.

At level 5 there is a little improvement. If the sorcerer primarily relies on only 2 offensive combat spells then he now has 2 spells he can use for some kind of utility. He also gets enough sorcerery points and spell slots and spells that will function will with metamagic by this level to actually make metamagic somewhat meaningful.

However, keeping this in perspective the wizard by level 5 literally has at least 14 spells known. He can prepare about 9. That leaves him 3 extra spells he can cast than you (not counting his rituals). If he uses them for combat then he has a spell that will work great in almost any situation. Because of his rituals he keeps a lot of out of combat usefulness even while only keeping the same number of utility spells prepared as you.

Maybe later on, but by level 5 I don't see how anyone can claim the sorcerer is nearly as powerful as the wizard.

Challenge laid down, challenge accepted.

Using Divine Soul Sorcerer.

Spirit Guardians meets 1 & 2, Finger of Death and Chromatic Orb meets 3, hold monster meets 4, mage Armour and mirror image meets 5, thunder step and Planeshift meet 6, Polymorph meets 5, 6, 7, and 9, Charm Person meets 8 & 5. That is with just 10 spells. Conjure Celestial adds in some summoning and helps with most of the spell types on your list, Wish hits all the points on your list, Aid offers healing and buffing, Major Image can be used for tons of stuff, Lesser Restoration cures most conditions, Mass Cure Wounds provides a ton of healing. Massive utility. And while Wings aren't techniquely a spell, it's better mobility then any spell the Wizard has.

Oh and with a single feat this Divine Soul can learn all the Wizards Rituals too and apply metamagic to them.

 

[gyor]

Yeah, that's my real problem with sorcerers. It isn't that there's anything wrong with the class, per se. With the right selection of single-target buffs and debuffs, coupled with Twin Spell, a sorcerer can be a powerhouse. And Subtle Spell on top of being a Cha-primary class makes them very effective in social scenarios as well.

But the way the class presents itself, at least in the PHB, is Blaster McBlasterson. Want to blow stuff up? Play a sorcerer. Except, don't, because you won't actually be very effective in that role. A fiend-pact warlock is far superior when it comes to raw damage output. An evoker is about on par with the sorcerer for damage and is far more versatile.

I don't think it's a bad class, I just wish they would present it in a way that showcases its true strengths.

You over state your case, you can absolutely make a good blaster with a Sorcerer. Still playing a Sorcerer is more about a theme then a specific role.

 

[Jester David]

I think the sorcerer has the same problems as the monk, where they're mathematically balanced but don't feel as good.
Getting that extra cantrip and having the flexibility of metamagic just feels less cool than having the extra spells known that a wizard does. Even if 95% of the time, the sorcerer would be largely as effective as the wizard, who ends up preparing the same spells every day, and the 2-4 more spells the wizard has memorized won't significantly alter a combat or game session.

 

[gyor]

I think the sorcerer has the same problems as the monk, where they're mathematically balanced but don't feel as good.
Getting that extra cantrip and having the flexibility of metamagic just feels less cool than having the extra spells known that a wizard does. Even if 95% of the time, the sorcerer would be largely as effective as the wizard, who ends up preparing the same spells every day, and the 2-4 more spells the wizard has memorized won't significantly alter a combat or game session.

Yeah, I think it's more about feelings then facts honest.

 

[FrogReaver]

Challenge laid down, challenge accepted.

Using Divine Soul Sorcerer.

Spirit Guardians meets 1 & 2, Finger of Death and Chromatic Orb meets 3, hold monster meets 4, mage Armour and mirror image meets 5, thunder step and Planeshift meet 6, Polymorph meets 5, 6, 7, and 9, Charm Person meets 8 & 5. That is with just 10 spells. Conjure Celestial adds in some summoning and helps with most of the spell types on your list, Wish hits all the points on your list, Aid offers healing and buffing, Major Image can be used for tons of stuff, Lesser Restoration cures most conditions, Mass Cure Wounds provides a ton of healing. Massive utility. And while Wings aren't techniquely a spell, it's better mobility then any spell the Wizard has.

Oh and with a single feat this Divine Soul can learn all the Wizards Rituals too and apply metamagic to them.

Two things:
1. Half of the spells you cite aren't spells a 5th level sorcerer can even take.
2. No one considers spirit guardians to be a control spell. It's a damage spell.