D&D 5E criteria for new races to be added to the PHB

[gyor]

A couple of things:

1. Assume, for sake of the argument, that the length of the PHB is fixed. Due to the cost and logistics of printing a hardcover book, we can't just add pages to the PHB. What comes out?

2. If a Race is in the PHB, there's the assumption that it is playable in every campaign setting, and I don't think that's true of Goblins. Eberron had to make some tweaks in 4e and 5e to give space to Tieflings and Dragonborn. I don't see Goblin PCs in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk.

3. Orcs were also reprinted, but were changed to accommodate Eberron and their history in Eberron. If they'd been in the PHB, that'd still be duplication, because now you're rewriting a core race.

1. Effiencies can be found, you cut back a here, a page there, and so on. It's 10 to 12 pages at most and reject the premise that the length of the PHB was fixed, because the Monster Manual wasn't, it was bigger then planned.
2. This is a common Fallacy, Half Orcs and Gnomes are not found on Darksun or many parts of Ravenloft, Dragonborn aren't in Greyhawk (even Tieflings are iffy), Dragonborn and Tieflings and few other races are in Birthright, Ravnica has no Dwarves, Halflings, Half Orcs, Tieflings, Dragonborn, or Gnomes, ect..., and if we count MtG settings future D&D settings this gets more pronounced, Lowyn/Shadowmoor has no humans, Theros has no Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Tieflings, Dragonborn, Half Orcs, Gnomes, Half Elves, Innistrad really only has human, Amonkhet is more diverse in playable races, but the only PHB race is human. I could continue, but you get my point.

3. Literally the only mechanical difference was getting rid of the negative penalty, otherwise they are identical stat wise. And races can have different flavors in different settings, but the stats are the same.

 

[Shiroiken]

Okay so playable Goblins stats have appeared in 3 different books, 3 or more settings, possible with more to come. Bugbears, Hobgoblins, Goliaths, have appeared twice. Deep Gnomes stats have appeared 3 times. Playable Aasimar have published twice (although with different stats), they have gotten mentions in Wayfarer's Guide, Volo's Guide, the DMG, the SCAG.

If you keep reprinting a playing race or subrace or they keep popping up in multiple settings in a playable context, it's a sign that they should have been put into the PHB in the first place. I mean why are their races like humans, Dwarves, ect..., in the PHB? because its more effient to put them in the core player book instead of reprinting the core races and core subraces endlessly.

Imagine having reprint playable human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling,,ect..., rules in every setting book or other book where they meant to be playable. That would be terrible.its so much more effient to put them in the PHB, a central book. And remember each race actually take up a small amount of page space compared to class or alot of other stuff.

So Goblins, Deep Gnomes, and Aasimar should be in the PHB, possible other races as well.

When they started 5E, they didn't know what races they were going to make playable. They made the ones they decided for the PHB, and then later as they figured out which ones they wanted to add, they playtested them and added them to supplements. Not only would putting them all in the PHB have taken a lot more time (deciding all the races and playtesting them), delaying the release of 5E, but it would reduces the desire by players to buy supplements without any player options. They even made the D&D Beyond as a product to give you want you desire, a combined list of all the races.

It's about how business works. They gave you the startup information to play almost every game in the PHB. Later you get supplements, which you then buy. Then they sell you a product to combine all the information together (D&D Beyond). Not only does it allow them time to design and playtest new things, but the roll out gives them a stead stream of income.

 

[Vael]

1. Effiencies can be found, you cut back a here, a page there, and so on. It's 10 to 12 pages at most and reject the premise that the length of the PHB was fixed, because the Monster Manual wasn't, it was bigger then planned.
2. This is a common Fallacy, Half Orcs and Gnomes are not found on Darksun or many parts of Ravenloft, Dragonborn aren't in Greyhawk (even Tieflings are iffy), Dragonborn and Tieflings and few other races are in Birthright, Ravnica has no Dwarves, Halflings, Half Orcs, Tieflings, Dragonborn, or Gnomes, ect..., and if we count MtG settings future D&D settings this gets more pronounced, Lowyn/Shadowmoor has no humans, Theros has no Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Tieflings, Dragonborn, Half Orcs, Gnomes, Half Elves, Innistrad really only has human, Amonkhet is more diverse in playable races, but the only PHB race is human. I could continue, but you get my point.

3. Literally the only mechanical difference was getting rid of the negative penalty, otherwise they are identical stat wise. And races can have different flavors in different settings, but the stats are the same.

1. "Efficiencies can be found" is such a political answer, and I don't accept it. The PHB is the main book that WotC sells, so while I can see getting away with adding content to the MM without increasing its sale price might be worth the PR offsetting the production costs, I don't see it happening with the PHB. Also ... I don't want a bigger PHB. RPG books can be hefty, and I have no interest in Pathfinder sized monstrosity that is also supposed to serve as the primary resource for the table and will almost certainly be passed around the table. So, no, I don't think we should have a larger PHB for niche options. So again, what gets cut?

2a. I'll change "every campaign setting", to "most popular and commonly used campaign settings" and say that I still don't see Goblin PCs in the Realms. And while I'm not the biggest fan of FR, I do view it as the default setting. I'll also note that the 4e Dark Sun book has a sidebar about playing non-canonical races, like Gnomes, in Dark Sun, so even Dark Sun adapts to the PHB.

b. MTG worlds were not designed as DnD RPG settings, so they are not useful examples here. Especially Lorwyn/Shadowmoor, which is unlikely to be returned to in MTG itself, let alone seeing a DnD book.

3. Orcs still had to be rewritten, so it's not an increase in efficiency to put them in the PHB. I'll point out that the Goblin write-up in the Planeshift: Ixalan PDF is different that all the other Goblins.

 

[bedir than]

Sorry, but give me Kobolds or NOTHING

 

[gyor]

1. "Efficiencies can be found" is such a political answer, and I don't accept it. The PHB is the main book that WotC sells, so while I can see getting away with adding content to the MM without increasing its sale price might be worth the PR offsetting the production costs, I don't see it happening with the PHB. Also ... I don't want a bigger PHB. RPG books can be hefty, and I have no interest in Pathfinder sized monstrosity that is also supposed to serve as the primary resource for the table and will almost certainly be passed around the table. So, no, I don't think we should have a larger PHB for niche options. So again, what gets cut?

2a. I'll change "every campaign setting", to "most popular and commonly used campaign settings" and say that I still don't see Goblin PCs in the Realms. And while I'm not the biggest fan of FR, I do view it as the default setting. I'll also note that the 4e Dark Sun book has a sidebar about playing non-canonical races, like Gnomes, in Dark Sun, so even Dark Sun adapts to the PHB.

b. MTG worlds were not designed as DnD RPG settings, so they are not useful examples here. Especially Lorwyn/Shadowmoor, which is unlikely to be returned to in MTG itself, let alone seeing a DnD book.

3. Orcs still had to be rewritten, so it's not an increase in efficiency to put them in the PHB. I'll point out that the Goblin write-up in the Planeshift: Ixalan PDF is different that all the other Goblins.

1. 10 to 12 pages is so minor it wouldn't even impact the price.

2. Goblins have been offered as a potential Player option in the Forgotten Realms since the book Races of Faerun at least, back in 3e or 3.5e at least, so yeah, it's far from strange in FR.

3. Ixalan is basically an unofficial, experiment document. And it's a variant type of Goblin, like MTOFs had variant elven subraces and variant Tieflings subraces.

 

[Hussar]

1. Effiencies can be found, you cut back a here, a page there, and so on. It's 10 to 12 pages at most and reject the premise that the length of the PHB was fixed, because the Monster Manual wasn't, it was bigger then planned.
2. This is a common Fallacy, Half Orcs and Gnomes are not found on Darksun or many parts of Ravenloft, Dragonborn aren't in Greyhawk (even Tieflings are iffy), Dragonborn and Tieflings and few other races are in Birthright, Ravnica has no Dwarves, Halflings, Half Orcs, Tieflings, Dragonborn, or Gnomes, ect..., and if we count MtG settings future D&D settings this gets more pronounced, Lowyn/Shadowmoor has no humans, Theros has no Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Tieflings, Dragonborn, Half Orcs, Gnomes, Half Elves, Innistrad really only has human, Amonkhet is more diverse in playable races, but the only PHB race is human. I could continue, but you get my point.

3. Literally the only mechanical difference was getting rid of the negative penalty, otherwise they are identical stat wise. And races can have different flavors in different settings, but the stats are the same.

Nitpick - Dragonborn are canon in Greyhawk according to Ghosts of Saltmarsh. As are Tieflings.

The idea that FR couldn't accommodate goblin PC's is, AFAIC, laughable. FR can accommodate pretty much anything, up to and including two trunked intelligent elephants. Goblins? Easy peasy.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

The PHB is not getting reprinted with alterations, it's not even worth debating as it will literally never happen. A free pdf "supplementary" document is the best you'll ever get, as there is literally no benefit to the added cost of making edits to the book.

You can debate which races will be in the 6e book though.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

As I sorta kinda said in post #4, I'm not opposed to it just as long as it doesn't get to be too much, increase the page count and/or increase the cost of the PHB.

Sometimes it's easy to push A-lot-of-choices right over into Too-many-choices Land.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Nitpick - Dragonborn are canon in Greyhawk according to Ghosts of Saltmarsh. As are Tieflings.

The idea that FR couldn't accommodate goblin PC's is, AFAIC, laughable. FR can accommodate pretty much anything, up to and including two trunked intelligent elephants. Goblins? Easy peasy.

Tieflings are explicity confirmed, Dragonborn are not exactly. There is a piece of art with one and a piece of text mentioning how citizens of Saltmarsh would be shocked to see one, but there are no characters/NPCs cultures named tying Dragonborn to Greyhawk.

Tieflings are confirmed as there is an NPC from Iuz's empire.

 

[Hussar]

Actually, there is more than one image with dragonborn in them, so, it's not just one. And, the fact that it does say that the folks of Saltmarsh would " react to other visitors, especially tieflings and dragonborn, with a mixture of curiosity and fear" pretty much cements it as canon that Greyhawk has dragonborn. Note, they are not shocked, just cautious.

So, yeah, dragonborn are confirmed as well.

I'm really baffled by the resistance to adding dragonborn to Greyhawk. It's so easy to do, and it's not like stuff hasn't been added to GH repeatedly over the years.