D&D 5E Want a better Rogue? Build a Wizard. Or why play a Rogue?

[Fanaelialae]

The Rogue has literally 1HP/level more than the Wizard, and quite likely has a similar AC (though there are so many factors that it's hard to say, especially with magic items in play).

I agree with all your other points, but suggesting Rogues are significantly less "frail" than Wizard is dubious, I'd suggest. They've got some nice options to "get out of jail", but so has any Wizard who prepared spells on the assumption he might end up in melee.

I think the concept of Wizards in 5E as "frail" is really more than a little outdated.

You play a Rogue because you like the style, or because you want to do that stuff, and don't want to mess with spells.

IME, rogues are much tougher than wizards.

Yes, they have only 1 hp more on average. But at 5th level they get uncanny dodge which is very good.

Additionally, they typically will have a higher AC as Dexterity is their prime requisite. A mage might be able to temporarily boost their AC higher in emergencies via Shield, but that's extremely limited (and an Arcane Trickster can do the same thing for an even better AC).

Lastly, don't underestimate Cunning Action. Being able to Dash, Disengage, or Hide once per turn as a free action makes it really difficult to put a rogue in danger if he doesn't want to be. Wizards have nice get out of danger options, but they are limited use and often get in the way of doing something productive (for example, Misty Step is great but then you are reduced to only casting a cantrip that round). The rogue can use Cunning Action and still sneak attack (in fact, if dual wielding the best approach is to make your first attack - if it hits use cunning action, and if it misses decide whether you want a second chance to sneak attack or be defensive with cunning action).

 

[Mort]

IME, rogues are much tougher than wizards.

Yes, they have only 1 hp more on average. But at 5th level they get uncanny dodge which is very good.

Additionally, they typically will have a higher AC as Dexterity is their prime requisite. A mage might be able to temporarily boost their AC higher in emergencies via Shield, but that's extremely limited (and an Arcane Trickster can do the same thing for an even better AC).

Lastly, don't underestimate Cunning Action. Being able to Dash, Disengage, or Hide once per turn as a free action makes it really difficult to put a rogue in danger if he doesn't want to be. Wizards have nice get out of danger options, but they are limited use and often get in the way of doing something productive (for example, Misty Step is great but then you are reduced to only casting a cantrip that round). The rogue can use Cunning Action and still sneak attack (in fact, if dual wielding the best approach is to make your first attack - if it hits use cunning action, and if it misses decide whether you want a second chance to sneak attack or be defensive with cunning action).

Right - and at 7th level Rogues get evasion.

0 damage on a successful dex save and 1/2 on a failed one is no joke (it doesn't even take your reaction), especially considering it's likely the rogues best save as it is.

 

[BluejayJunior]

And remember that for this conversation, any spells used to make a wizard more survivable directly affect their use as a rogue-replacement. Any spell slot used in combat directly limits their ability to solve the problems that rogues can solve without resources.
I think that a wizard could potentially replace a rogue in the party, but for most of the early and mid levels, they wouldn't be using their spell slots for much else.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

IME, rogues are much tougher than wizards.

Yes, they have only 1 hp more on average. But at 5th level they get uncanny dodge which is very good.

Additionally, they typically will have a higher AC as Dexterity is their prime requisite. A mage might be able to temporarily boost their AC higher in emergencies via Shield, but that's extremely limited (and an Arcane Trickster can do the same thing for an even better AC).

Lastly, don't underestimate Cunning Action. Being able to Dash, Disengage, or Hide once per turn as a free action makes it really difficult to put a rogue in danger if he doesn't want to be. Wizards have nice get out of danger options, but they are limited use and often get in the way of doing something productive (for example, Misty Step is great but then you are reduced to only casting a cantrip that round). The rogue can use Cunning Action and still sneak attack (in fact, if dual wielding the best approach is to make your first attack - if it hits use cunning action, and if it misses decide whether you want a second chance to sneak attack or be defensive with cunning action).

I'm aware of all this, but I don't agree with "much". That's an overstatement IME. Wizards in 5E are surprisingly tough, and usually not far behind the Rogue in AC, and can spike AC higher as you point out. They can also cast a lot of spells to get out of trouble, and the lack of AoOs in 5E makes them drastically less problematic to have in melee, as compared to 3E/4E.

Not sure why you think a cantrip some rounds isn't "productive". That's likely to be more damage than the Rogue does any round Sneak Attack doesn't land (which hopefully is few rounds). Plus they have tons of combat options the Rogue doesn't.

I'm not saying this is some sort of competition, because they're different approaches, but both are highly functional. What is nice is that 5E Rogue is a lot closer to Wizard in terms of being useful to the party, though they typically still end up behind at higher levels. Wizard is also closer to Rogue in terms of not getting killed - possibly ahead once you get into the mid-levels (yeah it costs them something, but isn't it worth it to not be dead where a Rogue might be?).

 

[Fanaelialae]

I'm aware of all this, but I don't agree with "much". That's an overstatement IME. Wizards in 5E are surprisingly tough, and usually not far behind the Rogue in AC, and can spike AC higher as you point out. They can also cast a lot of spells to get out of trouble, and the lack of AoOs in 5E makes them drastically less problematic to have in melee, as compared to 3E/4E.

Not sure why you think a cantrip some rounds isn't "productive". That's likely to be more damage than the Rogue does any round Sneak Attack doesn't land (which hopefully is few rounds). Plus they have tons of combat options the Rogue doesn't.

I'm not saying this is some sort of competition, because they're different approaches, but both are highly functional. What is nice is that 5E Rogue is a lot closer to Wizard in terms of being useful to the party, though they typically still end up behind at higher levels. Wizard is also closer to Rogue in terms of not getting killed - possibly ahead once you get into the mid-levels (yeah it costs them something, but isn't it worth it to not be dead where a Rogue might be?).

The rogue I played was actually party members with a wizard. My rogue was frequently on the front line and could deal with pretty much anything the game threw at him. The wizard was great if we could keep the pressure off him, but every time something got past the front line he would either go full panic or get knocked to 0 in no time.

Wrt not getting sneak attack, it does happen but thanks to cunning action it is pretty close to never (as long as you're smart about playing the rogue). Even if you can't sneak your current target, you can probably disengage and go after a target you can sneak. It really only happens if you get nailed by something that causes disadvantage and you can't shake it (which isn't most encounters).

As to why it's a problem for the wizard to only be able to cantrip after a misty step, it's because you may have been lining up to drop a real spell like fireball or hypnotic pattern. Having to trade up a game changer like those for a cantrip is harsh (at least that's how it felt for me when I played a wizard).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The rogue I played was actually party members with a wizard. My rogue was frequently on the front line and could deal with pretty much anything the game threw at him. The wizard was great if we could keep the pressure off him, but every time something got past the front line he would either go full panic or get knocked to 0 in no time.

It sounds like that Wizard was really badly played and probably dumped CON and DEX. That he's going "full panic" suggests really, really badly played. I rather suspect that when you played a Wizard, you didn't go "full panic" or "get knocked to 0 in no time", did you? I sure didn't. The Wizards currently in my groups sure don't. One of them I keep forgetting she's a Wizard not a 2E F/M or F/M/T or something, she's that tough (and she's a Diviner, not a Bladedancer or anything).

Re: Misty Step, sure, but you're still contributing, and likely significantly. If you're using MS it's likely because a totally non-trivial threat arrived and a Rogue may well be equally forced to Cunning Action disengage and run away from such a threat. If you're using it on a trivial threat just because it's next to you, well mate, this isn't 2E/3E.

 

[Fanaelialae]

It sounds like that Wizard was really badly played and probably dumped CON and DEX. That he's going "full panic" suggests really, really badly played. I rather suspect that when you played a Wizard, you didn't go "full panic" or "get knocked to 0 in no time", did you? I sure didn't. The Wizards currently in my groups sure don't. One of them I keep forgetting she's a Wizard not a 2E F/M or F/M/T or something, she's that tough (and she's a Diviner, not a Bladedancer or anything).

Re: Misty Step, sure, but you're still contributing, and likely significantly. If you're using MS it's likely because a totally non-trivial threat arrived and a Rogue may well be equally forced to Cunning Action disengage and run away from such a threat. If you're using it on a trivial threat just because it's next to you, well mate, this isn't 2E/3E.

Given that my rogue was usually the one running to that wizard's rescue when he got in trouble, I have to disagree. Between a respectable AC and uncanny dodge, a rogue can off tank most things competently.

As to his Dex and Con, he certainly didn't dump them but he prioritized Int. I prioritized Dex, so my AC was quite a few points higher. I didn't dump Con either.

The big difference is that I could generally sneak attack and disengage, or disengage and sneak attack as fit the situation, losing little if any effectiveness. Misty step and cantrip just doesn't compare.

I'm not suggesting that wizards are bad in 5e by any means. But I definitely think rogues are tougher by a significant margin (all other things being equal).

 

[Todd Roybark]

You definitely want a druid or a ranger in that party. For group stealth, pass without trace is insane

Or a Cleric of Trickery. Being a one person: "Stealth Party" in a box is one of the principle reasons I chose the subclass. Blessing of the Trickster, lets one negate the Disadvantage to Stealth checks that armor often applies, and the subclass always has Pass w/o Trace....as well as Charm Person and Disguise Self and Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity.

With some preparation, (easily possible, due to being in 'stealth' mode), I can make a perfect Illusion of myself, then Disguise Self into, say, a castle guardsman, and then make the illusion run past a real guardsman, and say "He went that way".

Advantage to Stealth checks and a +10 bonus due to Pass without Trace, is fun!

The Insightful Fighting ability for the Inquisitive subclass, while not a surefire solution, does much to ensure a rogue is likely getting Sneak Attack on every hit, against a particular target.

Also the whiteboard example does not take into consideration, factors such as a Rogue with a ranged weapon, being able to Fire, Move, and Hide, (as a bonus action), to maintain getting Sneak Attack and Advantage, on a target outside of melee range.

A Sword and Board Fighter with a Dex Dump stat build, that is not a Champion is going to have to devote many a ASI to get their Dex up.


A Champion, of course, can take Archery Fighting Style as their second Fighting Style choice which speeds up achieving parity,(or even surpassing ), the Rogue.

Fighters and Warlocks with Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast are the Quadratic Damage dealers in D&D now. Those classes set the damage output pace, in general.

 

[Todd Roybark]

(and she's a Diviner, not a Bladedancer or anything).

Diviners are pretty durable. Cast Spaming Absorb Elements or Shield through the Expert Divination subclass ability, and Arcane Recovery equals a substantial amount of damage mitigation.


My first 5e campaign, which began after the initial release of the books, included a first time player that rolled three 18 ability scores on a V. Human Diviner Wizard.

( which proves the adage that the gods favor newbies, fools, and ships named Enterprise).

The character is a beast! At 15th level the 20 Int, 20 Con, 20 Dex Wizard with the Observant, Resilent: Dex, and War Caster feats has More, a lot more Hit Points then the party Rogue.

Yet the Rogue still keeps up in effective Hit Points, via Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. Especially on adventuring days where Resting is not viable.

Folks, Don’t roll your ability scores, in 5E!

 

[MoonSong]

If you eliminate the rogue then you can take two wizards: One to cast Silence and the other to cast Knock.

You know that you can't cast knock once silence is in place, don't you?