Critical Role Echo Knight is Wildemount's Most Popular Subclass

D&D Beyond shared some stats about the things people are using from Explorers Guide to Wildemount. These are stats from 28 million characters.

 

[jgsugden]

A few reminders on the Echo Knight:

* It can't see. You see for it. If you do not have line of sight to the target, the target is heavily obscured for attacks from the Echo Knight and you must guess where the target is. If you have partially blocked vision, then it is lightly obscured, only, which does not hamper the attacks (but does impact perception checks from you).

* You need to be within 30 feet of it at the end of your turn or it is destroyed. It can move beyond that range, but must end your turn back within that range or it will be destroyed.

* You can move the image up to 30 feet on your turn. There is no limitation that you can only do this once per turn, but it is implied. If that requirement is there, then you can do the movement at any point, as a 'free action', but only once. There is no rule allowing the image (which is not a creature) to move before and after the attack.

* It is not a creature and can't make ability checks - no stealth, no acrobatics, no athletics, no perception, no initiative rolls. Only creatures make ability checks. If grappled, it stays grappled. It can't hide. It can't see or hear anything.

* Creating the echo, dismissing it or swapping places with it requires a bonus action, as does second wind and many racial abilities. Your echo needs to survive for a round to swap with it. If it is cut off from you, you have to spend a round dismissing it as a bonus before you can resummons it on the following round.

* It does not provoke an OA. It is not a creature and only (hostile) creatures provoke OAs.

* The additional attacks granted at 3rd level recharge on a Long Rest. They must be melee attacks - not ranged attacks.

* It is not a creature, so there are many things that can't target it. Specifically, many spells can only target creatures.

* It can't open doors, pick up anything, bandage an ally, or do anything that is not an attack, movement, swapping, or one of the other specified things an echo can do.

 

[CleverNickName]

Lots of orders flying around here all of a sudden...prove this, explain that, I challenge you to etc. etc. etc. Maybe we could ease up a bit on all the vitriol? This is a game, not a corporate merger. ;-)

 

[jgsugden]

To those saying everything in this book was playtested adequately, I challenge you to review the Chronurgist's 10th level ability, consider what you could do with it in terms of allowing you to have two concentration spells up at once AND get around longer casting times for spells not intended for combat to make them 1 action casting, and tell me again that ability had adequate playtesting.

The ability was adequately playtested.

Because I am just not seeing it. That ability...I mean Ruin Explorer may not be willing to use the word "broken" but I am for that ability. It's broken guys. It's breaking basic assumptions of the game. I don't think it's written as they intended it to function.

It is not breaking the basic assumption of the game, because it is allowing a second creature to cast one of your spells, not allowing you to cast two spells at once. We've had that ability since the beginning of 5E. See the Ring of Spell Storing. If you used the bead, it would still require you to concentrate on that spell.

 

[jgsugden]

Lots of orders flying around here all of a sudden...prove this, explain that, I challenge you to etc. etc. etc. Maybe we could ease up a bit on all the vitriol? This is a game, not a corporate merger. ;-)

Ah, apparently you're lost. This is the internet. You're looking for fantasyland, the ancient past, or perhaps a pet store filled with kittens.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

There is no limitation that you can only do this once per turn, but it is implied.

Reading it now and I'm seeing no such implication, in fact quite the contrary. What exactly do you think implies it?

The text explicitly avoids using the term "free action", instead saying "no action required", so it definitely isn't a free action RAW and doesn't look like it's RAI. Thus you can move it multiple times/turn.

It doesn't provoke OAs (it'd be less powerful if it did), but it can make them, to be clear.

 

[Mistwell]

I know you're the guide guy, but literally the first guide I found to Dunamancy spells had multiple ones rated in the top two categories, including four blue ones (though not Magnify Gravity, hilariously - maybe they just thing 1st level AE damage spells suck as a general thing).

DnD 5e Dunamancy Spells Breakdown

Character optimization guide for the Dunamancy spells presented in Explorer's Guide to Wildemount.

rpgbot.net

Obviously opinions can vary, but a lot of people seem to think that Dark Star and a couple of others are extremely good spells as well.

I focused on Magnify Gravity because it's one spell. I don't really want to be putting the details of every Dunamancy spell on the internet, it doesn't seem quite right.

I have never heard of that guide guy, but I think if you watch Treantmonk's video on those spells you will find that guide you highlighted is missing significant drawbacks to the spells he's calling Blue. There are only three, so let's go through them.

Gift of Alacrity is a good spell, but only at mid to higher levels. It's not worth that spell slot for lower levels. So, not worth a Blue rating. It's good though. I'd take this spell eventually, just not early on.

Temporal Shunt is another good spell. But with a Wisdom saving throw, it's useless against (for example) Legendary creatures. And the Upcasting of the spell is...meaningless. It doesn't function because they didn't start an attack roll or spell casting. It's still pretty good, but it's not better than a normal dispel magic spell at the lower level (maybe an upcast dispel magic).

Dark Star: This is where the guide you mentioned goes off the rails. That guide calls 8d10 for an 8th level spell "good damage". That is BAD damage. REALLY bad damage for an 8th level spell. And a Con save for half, which is the worst save to be targeting. It would be better damage if it hit a second time, but you're minimum 15th level by the time you're casting this spell which means you're fighting CR 15 creatures (and up). Highly unlikely a CR 15 creature cannot get out of the area of effect on their turn. This should be a 6th level spell. At 8th level, I wouldn't take this spell.

So yeah...I'd say there is one spell that's overpowered and it's the one you highlighted, Magnify Gravity. And it's not VERY overpowered, it's just probably a 2nd level spell listed as a 1st level spell. Don't get me wrong - I would take that spell. But, if it were a 2nd level spell, I think it would be essentially the same as a Shatter spell, which is what I'd call a decent 2nd level spell.

 

[Mistwell]

The ability was adequately playtested.
It is not breaking the basic assumption of the game, because it is allowing a second creature to cast one of your spells, not allowing you to cast two spells at once. We've had that ability since the beginning of 5E. See the Ring of Spell Storing. If you used the bead, it would still require you to concentrate on that spell.

Yes imagine that it's one of the best magic items in the game for a wizard which you AUTOMATICALLY GET plus it avoids longer casting times! And your familiar can use the bead, so it does allow "you" to have two concentration spells up at once since "you" control the familiar.

But it's that last part about avoiding long casting times which makes it FAR FAR FAR better than a ring of spell storing! A ring of spell storing treats it "as if you had cast it" which means all casting times for the spell carry through to the ring. However this ability is "A creature holding the bead can use its action to release the spell within". That means a spell which has a casting time of 1 hour or even 8 hours can be released with a single action in combat.

We have not had that ability ever in this game EXCEPT FOR USING THE WISH SPELL. That is literally the only other way I am aware of to get rid of a long casting time.

It breaks many spells which were never intended to be used in combat.

For example, you can now cast a Tiny Hut in combat with a single action, erecting an impenetrable barrier which the PCs can fire out of but foes cannot fire into, for a low-level spell slot! And you can do this every short rest, so probably three times a day.

I don't think WOTC thought that language through. I think they meant the spell casting time to carry through just like it does for a ring of spell storing. But...it doesn't.

 

[jgsugden]

Yes imagine that it's one of the best magic items in the game for a wizard which you AUTOMATICALLY GET plus it avoids longer casting times! And your familiar can use the bead, so it does allow "you" to have two concentration spells up at once since "you" control the familiar.

Until the familiar is hit by something, dies, and drops your bead on the floor where an enemy can pick it up... And while this is a strong item, it is not the most popular rare item in D&D according to D&D Beyond stats. The item has not ruined any games I have seen, and I have seen it used a few times.

But it's that last part about avoiding long casting times which makes it FAR FAR FAR better than a ring of spell storing! A ring of spell storing treats it "as if you had cast it" which means all casting times for the spell carry through to the ring. However this ability is "A creature holding the bead can use its action to release the spell within". That means a spell which has a casting time of 1 hour or even 8 hours can be released with a single action in combat.

Yes. 10th level abilities are supposed to be useful... and one that alters casting times, effectively, is suitable for this class. Intentionally so, I believe. However, it is far from a broken thing.

We have not had that ability ever in this game EXCEPT FOR USING THE WISH SPELL. That is literally the only other way I am aware of to get rid of a long casting time.

There are others, such as Glyph of Warding. However, that is irrelevant. New abilities are intended to be, you know, new. Not repeats. Most abilities break an existing rule of the game - that is why they are a benefit to the class. Because it allows them to do something nobody else can.

It breaks many spells which were never intended to be used in combat.

Beyond TH, what else are you concerned about? Not what else can be shrunk, but what else is a huge worry for you?

For example, you can now cast a Tiny Hut in combat with a single action, erecting an impenetrable barrier which the PCs can fire out of but foes cannot fire into, for a low-level spell slot! And you can do this every short rest, so probably three times a day.]

Most campaigns do not have two short rests per day, although that was the intent of 5E. This is a solid use - if you have a party of 5 archers. But you can't cast spells through it. The TH "defensive position" gets a lot of discussion, but not a lot of actual play in my experience, and when used, it is not as overwhelming as people expect it to be.

I don't think WOTC thought that language through. I think they meant the spell casting time to carry through just like it does for a ring of spell storing. But...it doesn't.

Why do you assume a time master was not intended to manipulate casting times? I kind of think that was one of the main intents of giving this to a time wizard - to allow them to manipulate time in multiple ways.

Divination wizards can FORCE a FAILED SAVE.
Enchanters have something akin to UNLIMITED HOLD MONSTER.
Illusionists can CREATE REALITY at 14th level using 1st level spells.

This is a well thought out, useful and interesting ability that helps make the subclass interesting.

You're Mystic Theurging all over it.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Quote me where I said they were broken.

Ruin, find a quote of me, where I said, you said “the spells were broken”.

Can’t find it can you. The reason why, Ruin Explorer is because I never said it.

This is you, using your, imminently amusing, technique of bombast, bluster, and distraction

Your initial claim in this thread was the Wildemont spells are overpowered, but not broken.

I agree.

Later in this thread you made a plaintive cry of “Look at the spells, the spells are strong”, which in the context of this thread, (and the admitted fact, I am not reading every word you write), seemed like an escalation, from your prior position of:

“Wildemont spells are overpowered but not broken”.

My response was to say that you, Ruin Explorer, had not demonstrated that the spells are broken.

Which you haven’t, since it is not your position.

So in the end, and after countless expenditure of words, and playful banter we arrive at where history often has demonstrated that you and I land: We largely agree with each other, in substance.

So why the Frick, are spells that are overpowered, but not broken, being discussed?

As to Anakin Skywalker, this powerful Jedi, (as Yoda referred to him in ESB), had his legs chopped off by a less powerful Jedi, (Obi has less Midi-chlorians), and then had his balls and butt, (as well as the rest of him), burnt to a crisp from lava engendered fire.

How is that not lower torso trauma?

Ruin, go chop off your legs and light your balls and butt on fire, and then tell me, from experience, “Not from Whiteboard theory crafting”, that this is not lower torso trauma!

I will wait......

Note: Post meant as a good natured, jocular remarks. Also sorry to Eric Noah’s grandmother for references to The Nether Regions.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Note: Post meant as a good natured, jocular remarks. Also sorry to Eric Noah’s grandmother for references to The Nether Regions.

Nice attempt to cover up that Darth Maul/Anakin Skywalker confusion before enraged Star Wars fans burn you at the stake, just saying.