D&D 5E Sorcerer Changes

[Chaosmancer]

Thinking more about sorcerer. I mentioned earlier (not even sure if it was in this thread) that I'd like to see bloodline spells AND let the sorcerer cast those directly from sorcery points, at a cost equal to the level of the spell. (Just like Shadow Sorcerer and darkness.)

The other mechanism that could reinforce the idea that they're "better at fewer things" would be if they could pick one of their known spells (or maybe one of each level?) to specialize in. The benefit to the specialized spell would vary depending on what kind of spell it was:

• If it is a to-hit spell, it would be +1 to hit
• If it does damage, you re-roll 1's (or can choose to re-roll 1 die)
• If it has a saving throw, the DC is increased by 1
• If it requires concentration, you get advantage on the save
• If it has a ritual form, you can cast it as a ritual

At each level, you can change your special spell(s).

Whaddya think? Too much?

I think this still fails in the same way that I think Metamagic always fails. I mean, +1 to hit is nothing, and even if it was something, it doesn't allow you to actually do anything different.

See, there is that claim, that Sorcerer's get fewer spells but they can use them in different ways to make up for it. They can be clever about how they use a spell to make it work when a wizard would just use a different spell. But, that is 100% false. No metamagic in the PHB actually changes the spell in that manner.

Heighten? Disadvantage on the save does not change what the spell does.
Extended? Making a spell last longer doesn't change what it does, and many spells it doesn't even break an hour to do this with
Empowered? Can't even change an aspect of the spell, just makes poor rolling less likely
Distant? Might, maybe let you use a touch spell when you otherwise couldn't, but it doesn't let you use touch spells to solve problems they otherwise couldn't
Careful? Doesn't let you use spells in new ways, jut reduces friendly fire
Subtle? Might, maybe, let you get away with a spell when you otherwise couldn't. Really only one argument could be made for
Twin? Doubling a spell doesn't change when it gets used.
Quickened? Making a spell faster doesn't change when it gets used.


One thing I really liked and included into my rework of the sorcerer is metamagic that adds effects to spells like these


Flared Spell When casting a spell that deals fire, lightning, or radiant damage, if the spell targets one or two creatures you may spend 2 points, if the spell targets more than two creatures you must instead spend 4 points. The targets that failed the save of the spell are blinded until the end of your next turn. If the spell did not have a save, they instead must make a Constitution saving throw, becoming blinded on a failed save.

This metamagic cannot be used on spells that already have blinding effects.

Chilled Spell When casting a spell that deals cold or necrotic damage, if the spell targets one or two creatures you may spend 2 points, if the spell targets more than two creatures you must instead spend 4 points. The targets that failed the save of the spell are restrained until the end of your next turn. If the spell did not have a save, they instead must make a Constitution saving throw, becoming restrained on a failed save.

This metamagic cannot be used on spells that already have restraining effects.

Poisonous Spell When you cast a spell that does poison damage, if the spell targets one or two creatures you may spend 2 points, if the spell targets more than two creatures you must instead spend 4 points. The targets that failed the save of the spell are poisoned for 1 minute. If the spell did not have a save, they instead must make a Constitution saving throw, becoming poisoned on a failed save. Creatures can remake their save at the end of their turn.

This metamagic cannot be used on spells that already impart the poisoned condition.

This sort of thing, and a few sub-class specific metamagics let you actually use spells in new ways. Now your fireball can also blind people, or your Ice Knife can restrain them

 

[Guest 6801328]

I think this still fails in the same way that I think Metamagic always fails. I mean, +1 to hit is nothing, and even if it was something, it doesn't allow you to actually do anything different.

See, there is that claim, that Sorcerer's get fewer spells but they can use them in different ways to make up for it. They can be clever about how they use a spell to make it work when a wizard would just use a different spell. But, that is 100% false. No metamagic in the PHB actually changes the spell in that manner.

Heighten? Disadvantage on the save does not change what the spell does.
Extended? Making a spell last longer doesn't change what it does, and many spells it doesn't even break an hour to do this with
Empowered? Can't even change an aspect of the spell, just makes poor rolling less likely
Distant? Might, maybe let you use a touch spell when you otherwise couldn't, but it doesn't let you use touch spells to solve problems they otherwise couldn't
Careful? Doesn't let you use spells in new ways, jut reduces friendly fire
Subtle? Might, maybe, let you get away with a spell when you otherwise couldn't. Really only one argument could be made for
Twin? Doubling a spell doesn't change when it gets used.
Quickened? Making a spell faster doesn't change when it gets used.


One thing I really liked and included into my rework of the sorcerer is metamagic that adds effects to spells like these


Flared Spell When casting a spell that deals fire, lightning, or radiant damage, if the spell targets one or two creatures you may spend 2 points, if the spell targets more than two creatures you must instead spend 4 points. The targets that failed the save of the spell are blinded until the end of your next turn. If the spell did not have a save, they instead must make a Constitution saving throw, becoming blinded on a failed save.

This metamagic cannot be used on spells that already have blinding effects.

Chilled Spell When casting a spell that deals cold or necrotic damage, if the spell targets one or two creatures you may spend 2 points, if the spell targets more than two creatures you must instead spend 4 points. The targets that failed the save of the spell are restrained until the end of your next turn. If the spell did not have a save, they instead must make a Constitution saving throw, becoming restrained on a failed save.

This metamagic cannot be used on spells that already have restraining effects.

Poisonous Spell When you cast a spell that does poison damage, if the spell targets one or two creatures you may spend 2 points, if the spell targets more than two creatures you must instead spend 4 points. The targets that failed the save of the spell are poisoned for 1 minute. If the spell did not have a save, they instead must make a Constitution saving throw, becoming poisoned on a failed save. Creatures can remake their save at the end of their turn.

This metamagic cannot be used on spells that already impart the poisoned condition.

This sort of thing, and a few sub-class specific metamagics let you actually use spells in new ways. Now your fireball can also blind people, or your Ice Knife can restrain them

Huh.

That doesn't really evoke, for me anyway, anything particularly flavorful or "sorcerous". It's just another way of reinforcing the idea that sorcerers know fewer spells, but are better at them.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it, either, but the problem I see is that you then have to come up with something for every different type of spell. Not just each damage type. What's the bonus side effect of Suggestion? Phantasmal Force? Haste? Invisibility? Darkness?

And then even if you do all that, what's the probability that some of the choices will be objectively superior to others?

At the same time, I get what you're saying about abilities that don't change how you play, and in general I like abilities/feats/magic items/etc. that do influence an actual change in tactics. That's why I like the Darkness mechanic in Shadow Sorcerer: by making it less expensive than other 2nd level spells, it increases the likelihood that you use it. Each subclass should have an incentive to cast thematic spells more often than generic ones. So that's the mechanism that (I think) achieves what you're describing, if not necessarily in the way that you're thinking.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Other spellcasters learn magic; Sorcerers are magic.

If I was going to really lean heavily into giving Sorcerers a core feature that fit the flavor of what they are supposed to be it would be to have them gain an extra spell chosen at random every level (or every other, or whatever), perhaps from a list of options for their subclass for that level. The point being that they are not some nerdy Wizard who chose a course of study and planned what he would work to be good at, the Sorcerer is a prodigy by nature whose powers do not all happen to fall according to anyone's plans. Alternatively there could just be substantial subclass spell lists of extra spells they automatically know.

That said, I think some people are overstating the "class doesn't match the lore" aspect in as much as the attempts to match the lore were really in the subclasses. Storm Sorcerer is pretty weak, all things considered, but every subclass ability they get is 100% on brand for "person with innate mastery of stormy magic". I think the option to have winds whip around you and carry you 10 feet whenever you cast a spell is one of the most stylishly lore evoking abilities in the game. The only place they fail for me on lore is not getting automatic mastery of more or less every wind, thunder, and lightning related spell in the game and instead having to make tough choices between spells that fit their lore and optimizing to actually be effective without ever knowing more than 15 spells. They then further fail on mechanics in having fairly weak subclass abilities, with three different ones (including the Tempestuous Magic ability I already referenced) focused on them being in close range of enemies, something a Sorcerer should generally avoid allowing to happen, and the one truly powerful one being at will flight that doesn't arrive until level 18.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Huh.

That doesn't really evoke, for me anyway, anything particularly flavorful or "sorcerous". It's just another way of reinforcing the idea that sorcerers know fewer spells, but are better at them.

I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it, either, but the problem I see is that you then have to come up with something for every different type of spell. Not just each damage type. What's the bonus side effect of Suggestion? Phantasmal Force? Haste? Invisibility? Darkness?

And then even if you do all that, what's the probability that some of the choices will be objectively superior to others?

At the same time, I get what you're saying about abilities that don't change how you play, and in general I like abilities/feats/magic items/etc. that do influence an actual change in tactics. That's why I like the Darkness mechanic in Shadow Sorcerer: by making it less expensive than other 2nd level spells, it increases the likelihood that you use it. Each subclass should have an incentive to cast thematic spells more often than generic ones. So that's the mechanism that (I think) achieves what you're describing, if not necessarily in the way that you're thinking.

See, with the shadow sorcerer I'm not sure about that.

Yes, Darkness for 2 pts is cheaper than darkness as a second level spell if you are using points. But, let us say they get it at 3rd level. 2 out of 3 points is signifigant, and essentially wipes out any other metamagic usage. 4th level they can do that twice, and are done. But, also, they could spend two points to Quicken, casting a spell and then a cantrip, or a spell and then use an action to activate that spell again (I think Witch Bolt would qualify for something like that)

So, yes, they are more likely to use it, but since it competes with everything else they do and you just don't have a large pool of points until mid-levels, I'm not sure how effective that mechanism is.

But, I also think the Shadow Sorcerer's Hound of Ill Omen is a perfect example of a great sorcerer ability. It is essentially a full spell, it has a ton of benefits that are very useful, and it can't be copied by other people. More stuff like that is what would sell the sorcerer story. Doing things with magic (not neccesarily spells) that is just not possible for the other classes.

with three different ones (including the Tempestuous Magic ability I already referenced) focused on them being in close range of enemies, something a Sorcerer should generally avoid allowing to happen,

This is something I keep noticing with WoTC design of the sorcerer that just makes me scratch my head. Almost every single sorcerer ever made in this edition, including UA, is designed to be within 10 to 30 ft of the enemy to be maximally effective. Stone and Giant Sorcerers were melee, Storm, Psionic and Pheonix had short range auras. Wild Sorcerer has some surges that only work within close range. About the only ones that maybe don't are dragon (extra hp and armor),Celestial (extra hp and maybe touch cleric spells), and Shadow (since you can see through the darkness you create and the Hound has a long range)

I feel like this is a hold over idea from 3.5, where the Sorcerer was a minor gish with their access to light armor and simple weapons, but 5e sorcerers don't get that, so I don't understand why they keep designing them to be on the frontlines of combat. That isn't their role anymore, and if you want it to be, give them the tools to make it so.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I want ranged classes to have an incentive to be closer. Archers, who can sit 150’ away with no penalties, are just broken. No need to break the other classes.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Yes, Darkness for 2 pts is cheaper than darkness as a second level spell if you are using points. But, let us say they get it at 3rd level. 2 out of 3 points is signifigant, and essentially wipes out any other metamagic usage. 4th level they can do that twice, and are done. But, also, they could spend two points to Quicken, casting a spell and then a cantrip, or a spell and then use an action to activate that spell again (I think Witch Bolt would qualify for something like that)

Yeah, I think you and I just have very different design goals. A subtle mechanical incentive to favor a spell, while still leaving hard trade-offs, satisfies my need. When there aren't any trade-offs in a decision...when one course of action is obviously, demonstrably better than another...then it's not really a decision. And games are all about making decisions.

 

[KnightGwen]

@Elfcrusher I don’t think there’s going to be one perfect answer to this. I guess it boils down to what you personally have issues with to what homebrews you’ll gravitate towards.
My thinking is always towards minor(ish) adjustments to the existing core class, as at least all the subclasses are affected somewhat equally. Changing every subclass will get really messy, really quickly.
@Benjamin Olson From what I can see, there isn’t an exact consensus on how the Sorcerer misses the mark, lore wise. Only that is definitely does. My feelings on sorcerers are twofold:

1. Sorcerers are innately magical. As such, they;
2. Can do things with magic that no other caster could dream of.

Unfortunately these are poorly realised in gameplay. Other than their subclasses being referred to as “bloodlines”, there’s nothing that makes sorcerers feel like innate magic users. Metamagics technically mean they can use magic uniquely, but the overall rigidity of them and limited ability to interact with them makes it a pretty hollow attempt at uniqueness.
My feeling was always that a sorcerer should be something like an Avatar, master of elements, type class. A Wizard might need both Ray of Frost and Firebolt as cantrips, just in case a situation calls for one or the other. A Sorcerer only needs Firebolt, as she can change it to Icebolt, Thunderbolt or Psychicbolt whenever she likes.
That’s what a sorcerer should be. Limited where a wizard is flexible, and flexible where a wizard is limited. Equal, but opposite. The current sorcerer doesn’t feel like that at all. To me anyway.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yeah, I think you and I just have very different design goals. A subtle mechanical incentive to favor a spell, while still leaving hard trade-offs, satisfies my need. When there aren't any trade-offs in a decision...when one course of action is obviously, demonstrably better than another...then it's not really a decision. And games are all about making decisions.

We do have different design goals, I think the shadow sorcerer ability is too limited and too subtle. I mean, if you cast Darkness using a spell slot, it is actually weaker than if you use this ability (because you can only see through it if you use sorcerery points) , and so the Sorcerer won't have the Darkness spell at all, and rely on using only their sorcerery points. Which then has to compete with metamagic.

The more I think about it, this is what I would actually end up changing for that ability. You gain the Darkness spell and it counts as a 1st level spell for you. You can see through any magical darkness you create.

This doesn't change the discount (a 1st level slot costs 2 points to create) but now it no longer competes with metamagic, and you can see through any Darkness you create, not just the darkness cast by using sorcerery points. I've made the ability more powerful, but just in how easy it is to use.

To me, it now feels like a real tactical choice, without detracting from the main class feature, which is metamagic.

 

[Guest 6801328]

The more I think about it, this is what I would actually end up changing for that ability. You gain the Darkness spell and it counts as a 1st level spell for you. You can see through any magical darkness you create.

This doesn't change the discount (a 1st level slot costs 2 points to create) but now it no longer competes with metamagic, and you can see through any Darkness you create, not just the darkness cast by using sorcerery points. I've made the ability more powerful, but just in how easy it is to use.

To me, it now feels like a real tactical choice, without detracting from the main class feature, which is metamagic.

Well, if you really want both the benefit and the sorcery points, you can cast it with points, then convert a 2nd level slot to points. Presto: you can see through darkness, and you're down one 2nd level slot (and a bonus action).

By making it a 1st level slot AND granting the ability to see through it you've made it significantly more powerful.

A recurring theme in this thread seems to be a claim that the flavor isn't right, followed by fixes that are a net (and often large) increase in power.

 

[Marandahir]

Well, if you really want both the benefit and the sorcery points, you can cast it with points, then convert a 2nd level slot to points. Presto: you can see through darkness, and you're down one 2nd level slot (and a bonus action).

By making it a 1st level slot AND granting the ability to see through it you've made it significantly more powerful.

A recurring theme in this thread seems to be a claim that the flavor isn't right, followed by fixes that are a net (and often large) increase in power.

I think it would be less wordy and complicated if one switched the Sorcerer class wholly over to spell points, which is then a mixed pool with sorcery points. Then you can change the Shadow Sorcerer ability to, "you know the Darkness spell, which counts as a Sorcerer spell for you but doesn't count toward the list of spells known per the Sorcerer table. When you cast Darkness, you can see through the darkness."