D&D 5E Sorcerer Changes

[Guest 6801328]

I think it would be less wordy and complicated if one switched the Sorcerer class wholly over to spell points, which is then a mixed pool with sorcery points. Then you can change the Shadow Sorcerer ability to, "you know the Darkness spell, which counts as a Sorcerer spell for you but doesn't count toward the list of spells known per the Sorcerer table. When you cast Darkness, you can see through the darkness."

Presto, very

Yeah, I get the argument for going to all points. I'm interested in finding "minimally invasive" solutions, though.

But, it occurs to me, in addition to granting bonus spells for each subclass, it would be cool to give each one a little twist, akin to being able to see through your own darkness spell.

So, for an example, and the first one off the top of my head, Storm Sorcerer might get Shocking Grasp (yeah yeah cantrip...this is just an example) that adds a knockback.

Divine Soul already gets a free spell, so Cure Wounds could get a 10' range. Or bless could affect one extra person.

Etc.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well, if you really want both the benefit and the sorcery points, you can cast it with points, then convert a 2nd level slot to points. Presto: you can see through darkness, and you're down one 2nd level slot (and a bonus action).

By making it a 1st level slot AND granting the ability to see through it you've made it significantly more powerful.

A recurring theme in this thread seems to be a claim that the flavor isn't right, followed by fixes that are a net (and often large) increase in power.

I don't see it as an increase in power, because if you want to make a slot it costs 2 points to make a first level slot. It takes 3 to make a second. So, by that logic, casting Darkness as a 1st level spell is the equivalent of casting it using 2 sorcery points.

The "and see through it" is meaningless. Unless you are a shadow sorcerer who takes the Darkness spell and casts it using a second level spell slot (which you shouldn't) you can always see through the darkness that you create anyways. So, I've increased no power, I just made it so you don't need to use the points directly.

I think it would be less wordy and complicated if one switched the Sorcerer class wholly over to spell points, which is then a mixed pool with sorcery points. Then you can change the Shadow Sorcerer ability to, "you know the Darkness spell, which counts as a Sorcerer spell for you but doesn't count toward the list of spells known per the Sorcerer table. When you cast Darkness, you can see through the darkness."

This is essentially what I did, just without pooling the points (which I agree you should do)

 

[Guest 6801328]

I don't see it as an increase in power, because if you want to make a slot it costs 2 points to make a first level slot. It takes 3 to make a second. So, by that logic, casting Darkness as a 1st level spell is the equivalent of casting it using 2 sorcery points.

The "and see through it" is meaningless. Unless you are a shadow sorcerer who takes the Darkness spell and casts it using a second level spell slot (which you shouldn't) you can always see through the darkness that you create anyways. So, I've increased no power, I just made it so you don't need to use the points directly.




This is essentially what I did, just without pooling the points (which I agree you should do)

But if you don’t convert the points, you’ve still made it a 1st level spell. This let’s a 5th level sorcerer cast a 2nd level spell four times and still have all his 2nd and 3rd slots and all his points.

Not sure how to interpret that other than a pretty damned big increase in power.

I think you are trying to make it equivalent to turning all slots into points and abandoning slots, which is a fine goal, but you skipped some steps in this analysis.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But if you don’t convert the points, you’ve still made it a 1st level spell. This let’s a 5th level sorcerer cast a 2nd level spell four times and still have all his 2nd and 3rd slots and all his points.

Not sure how to interpret that other than a pretty damned big increase in power.

I think you are trying to make it equivalent to turning all slots into points and abandoning slots, which is a fine goal, but you skipped some steps in this analysis.

And if you keep it as is and convert only a single slot you've cast it three times, have all your 2nd and 3rd level slots and three first level slots.

One less time casting Darkness for three 1st level spells. So, no, I don't see any increase in power here at all.

 

[Guest 6801328]

And if you keep it as is and convert only a single slot you've cast it three times, have all your 2nd and 3rd level slots and three first level slots.

But burned all 5 of your sorcery points....

EDIT: to elaborate, both versions cast darkness two times, yours with 1st level spell slots, the UA version with sorcery points, then we can “rebalance” two different ways: either by you turning points into slots, in which case they end up with same remaining resources and are equivalent, OR by the UA version turning slots into points...in which case he ends up using all four of his 1st level slots, or two of his second level slots, whereas you’ve only used 2 first level slots. It’s the asymmetry of the conversion that gives your version a big advantage.

 

[Var]

Count me baffled about the claims that CON as a casting stat would be neglible and totally fine.
Monstrous CON saves by level 4 or 8 over most other casters (+7/8 vs +2/3 or +4/5 with Resilience Con), more average HP than the average CON14 D10 Hitdie class or CON16 D8 Hitdie class. If that isn't stepping on the toes of other classes what is? Heck it irks be that my Rogue and Ranger rolled better than the Fighter and Paladin for a few levels.

If CON was used as a casting stat then for something MAD with a reason to be a big bag of hitpoints in every case. Thinking about the low end of the curve not everyone might want to be a super tough Sorcerer, I'd imagine most people prefer being able to be the Face but still appreciate the Proficiency in Con for Concentration.

As someone else mentioned a couple pages ago the base Sorcerer is fine. Look at the Divine Soul and tell me what's wrong with it and needs improving.
The PHB Subclasses are lacking a Feature or two and an expanded Spell list for flavor. It's easy to tell that the subclasses are limited and a bit uninspired at a glance. Not unlike the PHB Ranger, you can tell at a glance that it's just not quite there.
Put next to one of the worst offenders, like a Hexblade Warlock brimming with features, a Draconic Sorcerer is obviously dull. You can still edge out a build or two thanks to Metamagic carrying the whole class on its back, but you'd really like those expanded spell lists and a bit of extra sparkles to compete with the Spell variety of a Wizard and distinct subclass features of your estranged Bard cousin.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But burned all 5 of your sorcery points....

EDIT: to elaborate, both versions cast darkness two times, yours with 1st level spell slots, the UA version with sorcery points, then we can “rebalance” two different ways: either by you turning points into slots, in which case they end up with same remaining resources and are equivalent, OR by the UA version turning slots into points...in which case he ends up using all four of his 1st level slots, or two of his second level slots, whereas you’ve only used 2 first level slots. It’s the asymmetry of the conversion that gives your version a big advantage.

I think we are losing each other here. So, let me put it down and see if I can get it.

At 5th level you have 4 first, 3 second and 2 third level spells. Along with 5 sorcery points.

In the current version of the shadow sorcerer, if you wanted to cast a bunch of darkness for minimal cost, you could cast it three times by converting a single first level spell. So, no sorcery points, 3 first level spells, 3 second level spells and 2 third level spells left.

In my version, you would cast it four times, using all of your first level slots. So you would have 5 sorcery point, 3 second level spells, and 2 third level spells.

So, my version got a single casting of darkness more. But is completely out of first level spells. Both versions have not used and second or third level spells, so we should compare the 5 sorcery points to the 3 first level spells.


And the assymmetry makes this hard. If we take the 3 first level slots and convert them to points. Then the base version got 1 less casting and only have 3 points instead of 5. But, if we take the 5 points and convert them into first level slots, then my version ends up down a first level spell (they can only make 2) and has a single sorcery point which depending on metamagic choice might be worthless. So, worst case is an extra casting of darkness for the cost of a first level spell slot.


As a note, I would point out that while Darkness is a 2nd level spell, in terms of what it actually does, it is directly comparable to Fog Cloud, a 1st level spell. The big differences being that Fog Cloud can be blown away by wind and creatures (devil's specifically) can see through the darkness spell.


So, if there is a substantial increase in power, I would say it only shows up in the fact that you can cast Darkness and still have access to your sorcery points. The very thing that makes the sorcerer the sorcerer. But, how powerful that is depends on how valuable you see sorcery points compared to first level spells. I think the spells tend to be more valuable, because the points can't be meaningfully spent without spells to spend them on.

 

[Chaosmancer]

As someone else mentioned a couple pages ago the base Sorcerer is fine. Look at the Divine Soul and tell me what's wrong with it and needs improving.

I love how people keep pointing to the divine soul to prove that sorcerers are fine. Let us look at the Divine Soul then, just level one.

1) Gains extra spells, and is in fact the only sorcerer subclass published that gains subclass spells.

2) Is not limited to the sorcerer spell list and can pick spells outside of it.

3) Gets a 1/sr double bless roll as a reaction.


So yes, I'll go ahead and accept your argument. The Divine Soul is perfectly fine and needs no improvement. After all it is the only sorcerer who doesn't use sorcerer spells.

I mean, that seems kind of obvious doesn't it? Why take quicken spell when you can grab Spiritual Weapon? Hey, extended spell is great with all these cleric spells. Twinning these cleric buff spells is amazing too.

I actually have a guy in an online game I'm playing who went Order Cleric 1, Divine Soul. The only reason I remember that he is a sorcerer at all, is because he keeps twinning Guiding Bolt. Other than that, he is indistinguishable from a cleric. And if being a cleric is the best version of the sorcerer, I think we have a problem with the base class.

 

[Guest 6801328]

In the current version of the shadow sorcerer, if you wanted to cast a bunch of darkness for minimal cost, you could cast it three times by converting a single first level spell. So, no sorcery points, 3 first level spells, 3 second level spells and 2 third level spells left.

Oh, wait, I mis-read what you wrote. Hold on, re-reading and re-responding.

Yeah, I'll go back to my post you were responding to. We've got to compare apples to apples, and I think the only way to do this is to follow three steps:

1. Have both versions cast darkness the same number of times (really, how do you compare the results otherwise?)
2. Convert sorcery points until they both have the same number of slots, and compare remaining sorcery points.
3. Start over, but this time convert slots until they both have the same number of sorcery points, and compare remaining slots.

What you'll find is that in step 2 they come out the same, but in step 3 your version always has more remaining spell slots.

EDIT:

So to use your example of casting four times...

In your version, you burn all four slots. You still have your five sorcery points, and remaining spell slots are 3x2nd and 2x3rd.

In the UA version, to finish with all your sorcery points, you could burn all your points (2 castings), then convert 1 1st level slot and 1 second level slot and burn those (2 more castings). Now you have to get your points back. So you convert your last 3 first level slots, and one second level slot. That leaves us with no 1st level slots, and only 1 2nd level slot.

Final score:

	UA Version	Chaosmancer Version
Sorcery Points	5	5
1st level slots	0	0
2nd level slots	1	3
3rd level slots	2	2

If the only thing you ever used sorcery points on were spell slots, then the two version would be symmetric. But if you also want to use sorcery points for metamagic, your version has a clear advantage.

 

[Var]

I love how people keep pointing to the divine soul to prove that sorcerers are fine. Let us look at the Divine Soul then, just level one.

1) Gains extra spells, and is in fact the only sorcerer subclass published that gains subclass spells.

2) Is not limited to the sorcerer spell list and can pick spells outside of it.

3) Gets a 1/sr double bless roll as a reaction.


So yes, I'll go ahead and accept your argument. The Divine Soul is perfectly fine and needs no improvement. After all it is the only sorcerer who doesn't use sorcerer spells.

I mean, that seems kind of obvious doesn't it? Why take quicken spell when you can grab Spiritual Weapon? Hey, extended spell is great with all these cleric spells. Twinning these cleric buff spells is amazing too.

I actually have a guy in an online game I'm playing who went Order Cleric 1, Divine Soul. The only reason I remember that he is a sorcerer at all, is because he keeps twinning Guiding Bolt. Other than that, he is indistinguishable from a cleric. And if being a cleric is the best version of the sorcerer, I think we have a problem with the base class.

What's the point of taking that one sentence out of contect and ignore the rest as well as 6 pages of this thread disagreeing with Cleric Spells being the strongest thing even a Divine Soul has to offer? Oh well

Extra choices for thematic spells should be part of the Sorcerer Subclasses, pretty much everyone in this thread seems to agree on that.
The Subclass feature being good on DS and kinda lacking on most other Sorcerer Subclasses compared to what other Subclasses usually bring to the table was literally my own argument. I don't think Sorcerers are universally fine. Some of them would rival Beastmaster in how awful they are if they didn't get 9th level Spells to Quicken and Twin - through their baseclass features.

If your friend isn't twinning Greater Invisibility, Haste, Polymorph... etc I'll make a bold statement and claim he doesn't appear to be the most representative Sorcerer player. Which maybe might also be related to his base class being a Cleric. If your friend is picking up Sorcerer levels with Cleric spells, doesn't it look like he thinks the Sorerer features are better than Cleric ones? He could get the same spells with as prepared Spells by sticking with Cleric. Guess he likes Sorcerer Features better, huh. Sorry but that example seems to not support the point you're making.