D&D 5E Sorcerer Changes

[Guest 6801328]

Frankly NO archetype should have an ability that costs spell points to use. Period. That even one does is criminal.

This is when I realize I’m dealing with fanaticism and just start backing away slowly.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

It looks like you have some misapprehensions that may have lead you to argue from a false premise.

The sorcerer gets the wizard's recovered spell and an extra metamagic? Sounds like a buff to me.

Only if you assume there there were no situations throughout the day that a wizard could use their ritual spells for. Each ritual opportunity is effectively an extra spell cast by the wizard compared to the sorceror.

Huh, same as the wizard. Let's take a break right here to discuss ritual casting: what can you do?

At this point, you have 10 spells in your spellbook. You cannot replace a spell with another one, you're committed to the spells you chose. You can also have 10 spells prepared, so basically you have every spell you know prepared. The thing about ritual spells is that they take up what you could've chosen for a different, more useful spell. If you choose "magic mouth" as a ritual, you are stuck with that ritual rather than any other 2nd-level spell you could've chosen. 10 is a big list, yes, but it's still not the biggest list of spells.

OK, lets break down the mistakes here and then move into how they affect the argument.
A 5th level wizard has 14 spells in their spellbook, and probably 9 prepared.
This allows you to have a selection of utility spells that are available to cast as rituals and so do not eat into your prepared spells, as well as allowing you to cast them in some situations without spending a spell slot.
So the wizard has this secondary pool of spells like Identify, Find Familiar, Comprehend languages and can add any uses of them to their daily spell capability without reducing the spell slots available to cast other spells. Even spells that the wizard has prepared like Detect Magic can also be cast for free if time is not an issue.

In fact, Druids and Clerics have you tied for spells prepared and they have full access to all their spell class list, not just the ones they has to choose out. They also have ritual casting. Even Arcane Recovery isn't unique since Druids get Natural Recovery. Wizards have the largest spell list, but they don't have the most access to it.

Druids and Clerics can only ritual cast spells that they actually have prepared. A wizard does not need to have a spell prepared to cast it as a ritual, just to have it in their spellbook.
If the situation is one that allows the party to just wait a day, that is when the Druid and Cleric have the advantage.

Even a sorcerer doesn't have to commit to their spells. If they realize Hold Person isn't doing anything for them, they can switch out their spells on level up. Wizards can prepare spells, but they cannot change what they put in their spellbook without DM fiat.

A quick application of the power of mathematics might blow your mind here:
A sorceror that swaps spells every level will still have known less spells ever than a wizard of the same level, - and the wizard still has access to all of them.
Boom.

Wrong. The sorcerer gets access to a fourth level spellslot. Yes, they can make spell slots larger than they can know, for the purposes of upcasting.

sigh... wrong. Again. A sorcerer can make a 5th level spell slot.

Did you just forget they can make higher level spells? Or did you just not read me?

I think that they thought they were taking the best-case example. A metamagic effect will often have more use than simply upcasting a spell by one level. Obviously this can depend on the spells the sorceror has available however. (Extra d6 on a fireball is rarely worth it. An extra target in a Hold Person might be.)

 

[Asisreo]

It looks like you have some misapprehensions that may have lead you to argue from a false premise.
Only if you assume there there were no situations throughout the day that a wizard could use their ritual spells for. Each ritual opportunity is effectively an extra spell cast by the wizard compared to the sorceror.

Sure, it's extra out-of-combat utility. I'll never argue that Ritual Casting is bad or unhelpful but holding it on a pedestal as if Detect Magic for free makes a sorcerer weak in comparison is not true.

OK, lets break down the mistakes here and then move into how they affect the argument.
A 5th level wizard has 14 spells in their spellbook, and probably 9 prepared.
This allows you to have a selection of utility spells that are available to cast as rituals and so do not eat into your prepared spells, as well as allowing you to cast them in some situations without spending a spell slot.

A wizard is allowed to be useful and unique in the game. I miscalculated and they're stronger than I had given credit but that's fine. That doesn't make a sorcerer weaker. Because while a wizard can continually "cast ritual spells forever," they need to be in a situation where it's helpful, otherwise it's a waste of time. They also can't ritual cast combat-effective spells outside of the very expensive "Find Familiar."

So the wizard has this secondary pool of spells like Identify, Find Familiar, Comprehend languages and can add any uses of them to their daily spell capability without reducing the spell slots available to cast other spells. Even spells that the wizard has prepared like Detect Magic can also be cast for free if time is not an issue.

Yes, it's both good and flavorful but a boss encounter isn't ended any faster with any of their rituals, with a little chance for Find Familiar. And a wizard just usually isn't going to keep casting rituals unless they're sure they'll find something.

Druids and Clerics can only ritual cast spells that they actually have prepared. A wizard does not need to have a spell prepared to cast it as a ritual, just to have it in their spellbook.
If the situation is one that allows the party to just wait a day, that is when the Druid and Cleric have the advantage.

It's fairly easy to prepare ritual spells, but sure. A wizard always has access to his ritual spells.

A quick application of the power of mathematics might blow your mind here:
A sorceror that swaps spells every level will still have known less spells ever than a wizard of the same level, - and the wizard still has access to all of them.
Boom.

Sure, but that's not the sorcerer's source of power. It's from their ability to cast non-ritual, combat spells more powerful and potentially more often than a wizard. I also wasn't going to bring up how easy it is to get Ritual Caster as a feat and just copy the spells from your wizard's spellbook, taking that whole unique schtick with the wizard in one feat. Of course, it's a feat investment, but of ritual casting is such a bane to sorcerers, why wouldn't they just be V. Human and grab it at level 1 or grab it at level 4 before any of the real rituals have come back online.

I think that they thought they were taking the best-case example. A metamagic effect will often have more use than simply upcasting a spell by one level. Obviously this can depend on the spells the sorceror has available however. (Extra d6 on a fireball is rarely worth it. An extra target in a Hold Person might be.)

For AoE, remember it's an extra d6 per target when comparing the total target. A fireball has an expected 4 targets and has a total damage of 112. Upcasting it with that many targets does an extra (1d6*4) spread evenly across the target, doing a total of 126 damage. Is it worth it, then? Maybe. But again, I cannot make these judgements without context. Metamagic is unique, useful, and depends on the situation.

 

[MostlyHarmless42]

This is when I realize I’m dealing with fanaticism and just start backing away slowly.

And so you completely ignore my words because of it? You keep harping that "we can't just white room math this!" How is this for non-quantiative data then? I have had multiple players across multiple group in completely different social circles all express similar complaints regarding the sorcerer class that both myself and Chaosmancer have expressed. NONE of them were the sort to min/max characters or ever visit internet forums such as these. There is also a reason why we keep seeing multiple threads discussing the same topic over and over again in far greater frequency than any other class except the ranger (which suffers similar poor design issues) or those god awful "where's the warlord?!" threads.

Even the "official" sorcerer guides out there acknowledge that every element of dragon sorcerer other than fire and lightning is a trap, all praise devine soul, dismiss wild magic as too DM dependent, and label every other build aside from a social manipulator build as lackluster at best.

I'm not saying the sorcerer is completely broken. It is still salvageable. I am saying I've had more than 3 players all choose warlock, wizard, or cleric and the two who did try it were ALWAYS complaining they didn't have enough spell points. I run two or three encounters days in games. That they were running on fumes in such situations is quite telling. I am also saying that I've now had a character actually playtesting some of these proposed changes and she is by no means outshining the other characters by any means.

So go ahead and be dismissive if you wish, I am hardly fanatical about the sorcerer and entirely agree with chaosmancer that it is kind of frustrating and unfun that the sorcerer is basically forced to choose which abilities they get to use each day when no other class has this issue.

I specifically made that point BECAUSE someone did the direct comparison (one which I actually take issues with, but I was using their framework to make a point) of metamagic + font of magic == arcane recovery + extra spells access in which they stated that they were counting the spell points for both metamagic and spell generation use. Said person completely neglecting to do a further analysis of class features and conveniently left their class comparison incomplete because the rest of that logic hurt their case.

If spell points are to be used for font of magic and metamagic (which again THEY stated they were), we still have to address that wizards get on average two to three limited use abilities each such as Portents, Bladdancing, Arcane Ward, Chronal Shift, Power Surge, Instinctive Charm and Hypnotic Gaze. All of these features have some sort of limiting mechanic that follows D&D 5e mechanical use rules in some form or another. What none of them do is take away from a wizard's ability to cast spells or use any of their other features; they each have their own unique use tracking.

The sorcerer meanwhile has to use spell points not just for metamagic and extra spell slots, but also quite often subclass features as well. Again I reiterate, if that was the design intent from the get go, fine. But then I make the argument that sorcerers do NOT have enough spell points per long rest, and I question then why some origins don't rely on their use for some of their features. You are welcome to disagree and that is fine. You are welcome to that opinion. I prefer to seek feedback from those who actually wish to figure out clear options to house rule and discuss their merits and weaknesses (you know, the original purpose of this thread?).

I have provided my suggestions and their actual playtest results for precisely that purpose. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion here, just pointing out that Chaosmancer's opinions are NOT unique and others DO in fact share them. Do not be so quick to dismiss them in what is largely a subjective subject anyway. At the end of the day what I care about is multiple of my players telling me the sorcerer looks lackluster, not what the damn napkin math suggests.

 

[Asisreo]

And so you completely ignore my words because of it? You keep harping that "we can't just white room math this!" How is this for non-quantiative data then? I have had multiple players across multiple group in completely different social circles all express similar complaints regarding the sorcerer class that both myself and Chaosmancer have expressed. NONE of them were the sort to min/max characters or ever visit internet forums such as these. There is also a reason why we keep seeing multiple threads discussing the same topic over and over again in far greater frequency than any other class except the ranger (which suffers similar poor design issues) or those god awful "where's the warlord?!" threads.

Even the "official" sorcerer guides out there acknowledge that every element of dragon sorcerer other than fire and lightning is a trap, all praise devine soul, dismiss wild magic as too DM dependent, and label every other build aside from a social manipulator build as lackluster at best.

I'm not saying the sorcerer is completely broken. It is still salvageable. I am saying I've had more than 3 players all choose warlock, wizard, or cleric and the two who did try it were ALWAYS complaining they didn't have enough spell points. I run two or three encounters days in games. That they were running on fumes in such situations is quite telling. I am also saying that I've now had a character actually playtesting some of these proposed changes and she is by no means outshining the other characters by any means.

So go ahead and be dismissive if you wish, I am hardly fanatical about the sorcerer and entirely agree with chaosmancer that it is kind of frustrating and unfun that the sorcerer is basically forced to choose which abilities they get to use each day when no other class has this issue.

I specifically made that point BECAUSE someone did the direct comparison (one which I actually take issues with, but I was using their framework to make a point) of metamagic + font of magic == arcane recovery + extra spells access in which they stated that they were counting the spell points for both metamagic and spell generation use. Said person completely neglecting to do a further analysis of class features and conveniently left their class comparison incomplete because the rest of that logic hurt their case.

If spell points are to be used for font of magic and metamagic (which again THEY stated they were), we still have to address that wizards get on average two to three limited use abilities each such as Portents, Bladdancing, Arcane Ward, Chronal Shift, Power Surge, Instinctive Charm and Hypnotic Gaze. All of these features have some sort of limiting mechanic that follows D&D 5e mechanical use rules in some form or another. What none of them do is take away from a wizard's ability to cast spells or use any of their other features; they each have their own unique use tracking.

The sorcerer meanwhile has to use spell points not just for metamagic and extra spell slots, but also quite often subclass features as well. Again I reiterate, if that was the design intent from the get go, fine. But then I make the argument that sorcerers do NOT have enough spell points per long rest, and I question then why some origins don't rely on their use for some of their features. You are welcome to disagree and that is fine. You are welcome to that opinion. I prefer to seek feedback from those who actually wish to figure out clear options to house rule and discuss their merits and weaknesses (you know, the original purpose of this thread?).

I have provided my suggestions and their actual playtest results for precisely that purpose. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion here, just pointing out that Chaosmancer's opinions are NOT unique and others DO in fact share them. Do not be so quick to dismiss them in what is largely a subjective subject anyway. At the end of the day what I care about is multiple of my players telling me the sorcerer looks lackluster, not what the damn napkin math suggests.

Some people are incompatible with a class. Alot of people playing sorcerer and not feeling great really just want to play wizard or a different type of spellcaster.

I, personally, have some problems with the wizard class that makes it incompatible for me. Wizards require alot more system mastery because their margin if error is way too high since if things go wrong, they have to use important resources just to survive. The subclasses are boring and some are just bad. The lack of good combat options besides cantrips when spells are gone make them underwhelming at best when you've run out of spell slots. Trap options can be easy to fall into as a wizard and you always feel like you could've been better but you can't change spells known. A DM can take away the majority of your spellcasting, no other class has their spellcasting dependent on DMs. They don't get any big class features anyways.



Look, people have problems with base Warlock, base Barbarian, base Fighter, base Ranger, base Monk, base Druid. These are just the ones that I've seen very vocal minorities call out. Some of you may agree with some but most of you will not agree with all. That's because some classes are more compatible with certain people's playstyles than others. People feel underwhelmed because they always force themselves into a "role" in a team when most teams can do well without a defined roll in any of them.

"Oh, we need a martial, I guess I'll go Barbarian if I have to."

"Sigh, guess I'll be a monk since we already have a rogue."

"I wanted to play Paladin but the DM insisted on me playing champion fighter."

Sometimes, people don't carefully read their class's abilities and forget or think they're less powerful than they are. I guarantee you the majority of people complaining about sorcerers haven't used Font of Magic as appropriately as they could've. I guarantee people that complain about Ranger didn't talk to the DM and discuss the setting in-depth, rangers have been having fun in ToA. I guarantee that people complaining about monks stay in melee with very big enemies and blow Ki points like they're unlimited and use stunning strike repeatedly against a high con enemy when they could've stayed alive longer by weaving in-and-out.

And it's fine for you to personally feel underwhelmed by a class, but that doesn't mean the class needs to be fixed. I feel there's a quiet majority of people that enjoy the sorcerer for what they are and not because of what the internet wanted to look up.





And whiteroom analysis is only helpful when quantitative numbers exist in the first place. How many monsters are we facing? What are their stats? What's the battlefield configuration? Is it the boss? How many rounds does it take? Who's our teammate? What're their tendencies? Who's the DM? What're their tendencies? Are we outside? Do we have magic items? Which ones? Is their homebrew rules?

These can all be relevant when trying to discuss whether a spell is better than metamagic. Or vice-versa. We can't just declare that a sorcerer that doesn't have access to metamagic is bad because they might not have needed it. We can't say a sorcerer that has subtle and twin is worse than one that has quicken and twin, it depends on the campaign and how it played out.

There's also a bit of resourcefulness needed to play as a sorcerer. You can always work with what you have.

 

[Guest 6801328]

And so you completely ignore my words because of it?

No, I'm actually more persuaded than I have previously been that some more sorcery points would be a good tweak. Whether that means refresh on short rest, or generate them somehow (maybe take my idea about bonus spells and make it add a point to the pool, rather than just have it expendable on that cast).

But I'm not terribly interested in having a discussion about it with somebody who describes the current design as "criminal". That sort of hyperbole suggests to me that it's not really going to be a fruitful conversation. But have at it!

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Sure, it's extra out-of-combat utility. I'll never argue that Ritual Casting is bad or unhelpful but holding it on a pedestal as if Detect Magic for free makes a sorcerer weak in comparison is not true.

OK. This comment appears to indicate a fundamental disconnect in the conversation that I'm going to have to address in order for it to be at all productive.
There is no single feature of either class that determines the overall level of power compared to the other.
"Detect Magic for free" does not "make a sorceror weak in comparison" to a wizard.
You need to look at the overall class, and how the features operate.
For example, the wizard's combination of more spells known plus rituals, plus arcane recovery all synergise together to make them probably the best casters in the game due to being able to cast more spells than any other class, with the greatest variety available over the adventuring day. Those three features work with each other very effectively.
In comparison, the sorceror's main features: Font of Magic and Metamagic are competing against each other for the same resource.

A wizard is allowed to be useful and unique in the game. I miscalculated and they're stronger than I had given credit but that's fine. That doesn't make a sorcerer weaker. Because while a wizard can continually "cast ritual spells forever," they need to be in a situation where it's helpful, otherwise it's a waste of time. They also can't ritual cast combat-effective spells outside of the very expensive "Find Familiar."

Yes, it's both good and flavorful but a boss encounter isn't ended any faster with any of their rituals, with a little chance for Find Familiar. And a wizard just usually isn't going to keep casting rituals unless they're sure they'll find something.

Combat is not the only drain on a caster's spells. While not every utility spell is a ritual, the wizard's ability to cast some for free where the sorceror would have to spend a spell slot still gives them an advantage.

Sure, but that's not the sorcerer's source of power. It's from their ability to cast non-ritual, combat spells more powerful and potentially more often than a wizard. I also wasn't going to bring up how easy it is to get Ritual Caster as a feat and just copy the spells from your wizard's spellbook, taking that whole unique schtick with the wizard in one feat. Of course, it's a feat investment, but of ritual casting is such a bane to sorcerers, why wouldn't they just be V. Human and grab it at level 1 or grab it at level 4 before any of the real rituals have come back online.

The Ritual Caster feat is nowhere near as powerful as the wizard's class features that enable ritual casting. Mostly due to the wizard being able to add new rituals to it as they level.

 

[Asisreo]

OK. This comment appears to indicate a fundamental disconnect in the conversation that I'm going to have to address in order for it to be at all productive.
There is no single feature of either class that determines the overall level of power compared to the other.
"Detect Magic for free" does not "make a sorceror weak in comparison" to a wizard.
You need to look at the overall class, and how the features operate.
For example, the wizard's combination of more spells known plus rituals, plus arcane recovery all synergise together to make them probably the best casters in the game due to being able to cast more spells than any other class, with the greatest variety available over the adventuring day. Those three features work with each other very effectively.
In comparison, the sorceror's main features: Font of Magic and Metamagic are competing against each other for the same resource.

I don't get it. So is a paladin's smites and spellslots. So is a cleric's channel divinity. So is a Bard's bardic inspiration and cutting words. So is a monk's flurry of blows and step of the wind.

Heck, a spellcaster's spells are literally competing with each other over a long rest yet spellcasters aren't bad because they can use their spellslots to do more than one thing.

Combat is not the only drain on a caster's spells. While not every utility spell is a ritual, the wizard's ability to cast some for free where the sorceror would have to spend a spell slot still gives them an advantage.

It's ironic you say this after literally saying that you can't compare a single feature and call it superior.

The Ritual Caster feat is nowhere near as powerful as the wizard's class features that enable ritual casting. Mostly due to the wizard being able to add new rituals to it as they level.

Sorcerers can add ritual spells, it does require a DM to place a spellscroll or spellbook but if you have a wizard, you can essentially have all of their ritual spells anyways. Although, if you have free time, you can make spellscrolls of any known ritual spells, then copy them into your spellbook, free to be forgotten without any worry.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Let's stop you right here and appreciate the fact that you completely glossed over the fact the wizard only had one choice to use it's resource, but a sorcerer had 2.

Yep, they could either keep up with the wizard. Or actually be a sorcerer. Such a wonderful choice for the sorcerer to make.

The sorcerer gets the wizard's recovered spell and an extra metamagic? Sounds like a buff to me.

Yes, it is so kind that they could use their class features at least once without falling behind.

Huh, same as the wizard. Let's take a break right here to discuss ritual casting: what can you do?

At this point, you have 10 spells in your spellbook. You cannot replace a spell with another one, you're committed to the spells you chose. You can also have 10 spells prepared, so basically you have every spell you know prepared. The thing about ritual spells is that they take up what you could've chosen for a different, more useful spell. If you choose "magic mouth" as a ritual, you are stuck with that ritual rather than any other 2nd-level spell you could've chosen. 10 is a big list, yes, but it's still not the biggest list of spells.

In fact, Druids and Clerics have you tied for spells prepared and they have full access to all their spell class list, not just the ones they has to choose out. They also have ritual casting. Even Arcane Recovery isn't unique since Druids get Natural Recovery. Wizards have the largest spell list, but they don't have the most access to it.

Even a sorcerer doesn't have to commit to their spells. If they realize Hold Person isn't doing anything for them, they can switch out their spells on level up. Wizards can prepare spells, but they cannot change what they put in their spellbook without DM fiat.

So, first off, wrong. A 5th level wizard has 14 spells in their spellbook, minimum. More if they were able to find any spell scrolls or other spellbooks.

And this mistake shows when you start talking about prepared spells. A wizard at 5th level can probably prepare nine spells. But, they can cast ritual spells without preparing them, if they have say, three ritual spells (find familiar, detect magic, identify) this means that they have effectively twelve spells prepared. This is the advantage they have over Druids and Clerics, who must have their ritual spells prepared to be able to use them. The only reason Clerics can keep up is because they have their domain spells which are pre-selected.

A sorcerer at 5th level? 6 spells known, half that number. To get 12 spells known they would have to wait til they are level Eleven.

And yes, swapping a spell on level up sounds great. It is also frankly nessecary because with so few spells known, you can't afford to keep spells that are not performing. A wizard might be stuck with sleep as one of their 44 spells known for their entire career. A sorcerer has to get rid of it by third level if they want to stay even close to competitive.

I like how you use Quicken as a metric as if it's the gods' most sacred metamagic ever. Quicken only lets you do a cantrip on top of your action. Maybe dodge or hide if you're in that kind of position. Quicken isn't all that great. If anything, you should checking out twin. Twin lets you concentrate on 2 targets.

Twin also has a scaling cost. Twin a cantrip, 1 point and cost less than Quicken. Twin Haste and that costs 3 points which is more than Quicken.

I'm using Quicken because it has a stable cost, matches a known value (a first level spell slot) and is an average of other metamagics. If I was using Twin I would have to account for what I am twinning. Heighten costs more, subtle less. I was trying to show a trend, not need to post a spreadsheet.

Yeah, sure. If for some reason, the sorcerer felt compelled to quicken, if he even has that metamagic, then he can't recover just as much until level 8. Well, good thing the sorcerer isn't some sort of quicken addict that can tell when a spell isn't worth quickening.

This leads back into my point that wizards are way more static than people seem to realize. You can't change spells on level up, you can't replace low level spells (not the slots, the actual spells) with more high level spells, you can't change what your ritual spells are. There isn't even that many good ritual spells, you can have unseen servant, find familiar, detect magic, identify.

None of these have combat applications either.

And if they don't use any metamagics, why are you bothering to play a sorcerer?

Also, "no combat application" doesn't matter. I've got a Druid who learned Unseen Servant and used it to break into a warehouse and assist me in stealing from our target. Combat power does not equal story power. And as anyone should be able to tell you, that is half the game. A half of the game that wizards dominate compared to sorcerers in terms of spells.

Not hiding anything. I'm showing you the plain truth that you want to cover. You can't compare metamagic to anything. It's value fluctuates, just like anything else with a resource. The value of a material fluctuates based on whether someone needs it. A cereal company has no use for quartz but a watch company might want one. Whether a spell is valuable also fluctuates, depending on the campaign. It's why some wizards have mage armor & magic missile while another has burning hands and shield.

Is that why you want to dismiss it as not worth talking about? Because it can't be compared to anything else?

Well, then I present to you a more succinct argument.

Metamagic can't be compared to anything, which makes its value higher than any spell slot you could create. Therefore, the sorcerer should do metamagic instead of making spells.

Except, you are insisting that they should make spells, that that is where their real power is, beatings wizards who don't get a short rest.

Font of magic has one-and-only-one use: converting spells. That's what font of magic is. That's all font of magic is. You haven't proven anything, you just listed an incorrect list of what wizards can recover and what sorcerers can recover.

I was a little off when copying your list, so what.

You seem to have not read the class ability. Font of Magic gives you sorcerery points and tells you that they can be used for "a variety of magical effects". It then tells you you can convert points into spell slots or slots into points. And why might you want to do that.

Because Metamagic costs points, your only other class ability in the entire game. If font of magic, the source of sorcerery points, isn't meant to be considered along with metamagic, the classes ability to use sorcerery points, then why would it be designed this way?

This whole "but my shield..." argument is precisely what I'm trying to get across to you. I don't know if hypothetical sorcerer man needs 4 banishments. He might need 4 Dimension Doors. Or he might need 4 Polymorphs. Or he might need a grand total of 0 4th level spells for his whole career and guess what? He can turn those unnecessary 4th level spells into 2 1st-level spells each. If shield is so important, a sorcerer can cast it 27 times a day maximum. Don't ask me if a sorcerer will need that, because there's no way for me to know that given 0 context. But the fact they can cast shield that many times at 10th level while a wizard can only cast it 20 times maximum with exactly the same type of resource expenditure, that means something.

Banishment, Polymorph and Dimension door? That means you are 8th level and have six other spells. Oh, Shield. So you have five other spells.

You are trying to sell this narrative that sorcerers are this hyper flexible class that can do anything. They can do metamagic (limited to 2 for most of their career and only a few times per day), they can make more spell slots (only slightly more than the wizard if they give up on all metamagic), they can get all the high level spells (if they get rid of all low level spells) they can get all low level spells (if they get rid of all high level spells)

But the truth is, they have to stay in their lane. They have to pick one of those options and stick with it, they can't alter their path later on in the day. They Twinned haste in a fight and lost concentration. Now they can't make as many spell slots, they can't get as many high spells, they can't make as many low spells. They made a call, and now they are behind on every other metric.

Meanwhile, the wizard is "Static" like you said, like every other caster is. They have their spells per day and nothing they do will alter that. They have their class abilites and nothing they do will alter that. Using one doesn't turn off the other. But it does for sorcerers.

It can't be because...a wizard has arcane recovery? Which takes a short rest while a font of magic can be a candid decision? And that's your assertion why font of magic can't be a defining feature even though it can completely change the way anyone can use the class?

You keep acting like short rests are unicorns. They are not that hard to come by.

And, if a wizard in a single short rest can match the daily exertions of a Sorcerer who is not using their metamagic... then yeah, you aren't completely changing how the sorcerer plays, you are matching the wizard who took a nap.

You're so evocative with your "devil's bargain" bit like casting higher level spells at the cost of lower level spell slots will remove your soul and sacrifice your firstborn child. They can go the opposite way, too, which is why there's a whole conversion thing. You can turn a 4th level spell into 2 1st level spells as you seen before. So you have more opportunities opened up to you.

4th level spell costs six points. You have spent something worth six to get something worth four.

If that sounds like a great deal to you maybe you can hand me a dollar and I'll give you back 75 cents. Those quarters can be more useful anyway if you happen to need them.

Except it doesn't. You kept using quicken to artificially take away sorcery points and reduce spell level when it's perfectly valid to have actually wanted to just subtle spell or distant a spell.

And without quicken they were still only matching. I guess at 6th level I was off by one a few times. But still, you aren't getting more spell slots than wizards until then. If you are equal, you do not have more.

You literally get both. You can legitimately have both font of magic and metamagic on the same turn at level 3, as soon as it's possible. It's not that small of a resource.

By doing what? Creating a first level spell and using Subtle? Congrats. You are out of daily points, and the wizard is ahead of you in spell slots by the end of the day.

You have access to both, but using one cuts the other.

What? They stole your lunch money? People compare Careful to Evocation wizard as if choosing a whole subclass wasn't a big commitment. It's decent if you want to keep someone out of cloud of daggers or Web or Fear or if you want to protect yourself. Or if you're doing a particularly nasty AoE. Distant is good for touch spells like cure wounds or spells with limited distance like suggestion which requires you to be within "move and hit" distance; it also fiddles with those "in range" type spells like teleport and mass suggestion. Empowered is really good with AoE's since they increase the damage shared; an empowered fireball hits roughly 4 targets and those rerolls turns 1s and 2s into much better damage pee target. Extend is good when you are casting a spell you need for long periods right before finishing a long rest. You can cast extend mage as armor 1 minute before a long rest and have mage armor the entirety of the rest of the day until the next long rest. Also, delayed blast fireball's maximum damage increases by another 10d6 at the price of 1 sorcery point.

Heightened is amazing at higher levels, which is where I'd recommend picking it up as your third or fourth metamagic. When creatures have high saves, granting disadvantage on a 7th or 8th level spell can be devastating, and at that point, you probably have more sorcery points than you know how to use.

Apparently you like quickened so much, so we'll leave it be (even though it isn't that amazing imo). Subtle is great in social situations and against a counterspell guy. Twinned is amazing, it lets you concentrate on two of the same effects at once; things like Haste and Polymorph are classic but you can twin Banishment or Hold Monster.

Alright. Pick two. From third to tenth level, for a single campaign, pick two of those. That is all you get.

Is it more useful to twin haste, or use cure wounds (hi divine soul) at 30 ft range?

Are you going to fight enough large groups of enemies to make empower at 5th level worth it, or should you take subtle so you can use those 3rd level spells in the royal court.

Decide now, three levels before you even have access to those spells, what the plot is going to be so you can be most effective.

Also, notice how you put Heighten as your third pick? That's because it is so expensive it is a horrid pick before then. If you are playing a campaign that is going to end my level 9, you will never see a single Heighten spell hit the table, because no one picks it.

You want to know why we compare sculpt spell to Careful spell? Because metamagic is so limited it might as well be a subclass choice in and of itself, and the Wizard who wants to be good at evocation has a stronger version of your ability you can pay for at level 3 for free at level 2.




/-/-/-/-/*-

I just looked up at the clock and realized I've spent an hour and a half responding to this post. An hour and half dedicated to arguing with someone who is constantly deriding and mocking me. Over a subject I have debated time and time again for years.

I have other responsibilities demanding my attention. I think I am done here.

 

[Asisreo]

Yep, they could either keep up with the wizard. Or actually be a sorcerer. Such a wonderful choice for the sorcerer to make.

You're being inconsistent is metamagic bad or being close to a wizard bad? It can't be both.

Yes, it is so kind that they could use their class features at least once without falling behind.

As opposed to the equal class feature that the wizard actually doesn't get. Their is no 3rd level class feature for a wizard, the sorcerer has the leg-up in this argument.

So, first off, wrong. A 5th level wizard has 14 spells in their spellbook, minimum. More if they were able to find any spell scrolls or other spellbooks.

And this mistake shows when you start talking about prepared spells. A wizard at 5th level can probably prepare nine spells. But, they can cast ritual spells without preparing them, if they have say, three ritual spells (find familiar, detect magic, identify) this means that they have effectively twelve spells prepared. This is the advantage they have over Druids and Clerics, who must have their ritual spells prepared to be able to use them. The only reason Clerics can keep up is because they have their domain spells which are pre-selected.

A sorcerer at 5th level? 6 spells known, half that number. To get 12 spells known they would have to wait til they are level Eleven.

And yes, swapping a spell on level up sounds great. It is also frankly nessecary because with so few spells known, you can't afford to keep spells that are not performing. A wizard might be stuck with sleep as one of their 44 spells known for their entire career. A sorcerer has to get rid of it by third level if they want to stay even close to competitive.

I've already recognized my mistake with this, so I'll drop it.

Twin also has a scaling cost. Twin a cantrip, 1 point and cost less than Quicken. Twin Haste and that costs 3 points which is more than Quicken.

I'm using Quicken because it has a stable cost, matches a known value (a first level spell slot) and is an average of other metamagics. If I was using Twin I would have to account for what I am twinning. Heighten costs more, subtle less. I was trying to show a trend, not need to post a spreadsheet.

Yes, but you see how you're choosing a single narrative and then make it seem weak when you're misrepresenting the entirety of the feature.

And if they don't use any metamagics, why are you bothering to play a sorcerer?

4 2nd-level spells. Or maybe the Con proficiency and proficiency with leather armor. Or the extra cantrips. Or, y'know, the flavor.

Also, "no combat application" doesn't matter. I've got a Druid who learned Unseen Servant and used it to break into a warehouse and assist me in stealing from our target. Combat power does not equal story power. And as anyone should be able to tell you, that is half the game. A half of the game that wizards dominate compared to sorcerers in terms of spells.

And sorcerers dominate the combat half. Because it's okay that not all spellcasters are wizards.

Is that why you want to dismiss it as not worth talking about? Because it can't be compared to anything else?

Well, then I present to you a more succinct argument.

Metamagic can't be compared to anything, which makes its value higher than any spell slot you could create. Therefore, the sorcerer should do metamagic instead of making spells.

Except, you are insisting that they should make spells, that that is where their real power is, beatings wizards who don't get a short rest.

Witchbolt is a unique type of spell that does autodamage after one successful hit. It's garbage.

You know those "being unique doesn't make you good" things? Yeah, that's metamagic.

I was a little off when copying your list, so what.

You seem to have not read the class ability. Font of Magic gives you sorcerery points and tells you that they can be used for "a variety of magical effects". It then tells you you can convert points into spell slots or slots into points. And why might you want to do that.

Because Metamagic costs points, your only other class ability in the entire game. If font of magic, the source of sorcerery points, isn't meant to be considered along with metamagic, the classes ability to use sorcerery points, then why would it be designed this way?

C'mon, you're so close. Metamagic and font of magic is meant to be considered alongside each other. They are the two sides of the same coin that you get to choose. Like Ki and flurry vs step of the wind vs stunning strike.

Banishment, Polymorph and Dimension door? That means you are 8th level and have six other spells. Oh, Shield. So you have five other spells.

You are trying to sell this narrative that sorcerers are this hyper flexible class that can do anything. They can do metamagic (limited to 2 for most of their career and only a few times per day), they can make more spell slots (only slightly more than the wizard if they give up on all metamagic), they can get all the high level spells (if they get rid of all low level spells) they can get all low level spells (if they get rid of all high level spells)

But the truth is, they have to stay in their lane. They have to pick one of those options and stick with it, they can't alter their path later on in the day. They Twinned haste in a fight and lost concentration. Now they can't make as many spell slots, they can't get as many high spells, they can't make as many low spells. They made a call, and now they are behind on every other metric.

I feel like you both understand and don't understand. You are so right about all the stuff they can do but so wrong about having to stay in their lane. There's nothing saying that after casting a 3rd 2nd-level spell, they cannot pull from spellslots to fuel metamagic as well.

Meanwhile, the wizard is "Static" like you said, like every other caster is. They have their spells per day and nothing they do will alter that. They have their class abilites and nothing they do will alter that. Using one doesn't turn off the other. But it does for sorcerers.

It's crazy how firmly you stand on this one-or-the-other hill as if it is such a valiant position to hold, because it's just wrong.

I have a limited amount of money. I have food in my fridge. I can buy takeout. I can use my food in the fridge to feed me, or I can use my money to buy takeout. Or I can use my money to buy more food for my fridge. They all take up the same pool but I get to choose based on the situation and my personal disposition.

What's crazy, though, is that I can buy more food for the fridge and still have money for takeout. Because I don't have to commit if I don't want to. I get a say in what I buy. It's basic economics.

You keep acting like short rests are unicorns. They are not that hard to come by.

And, if a wizard in a single short rest can match the daily exertions of a Sorcerer who is not using their metamagic... then yeah, you aren't completely changing how the sorcerer plays, you are matching the wizard who took a nap.

I've never said short rests are rare. This entire time, I've been comparing a rested wizard with a sorcerer that hasn't rested.

Like someone else said, imagine being a wizard but you could also enhance your spells with arcane recovery, as if it's a channel divinity.

4th level spell costs six points. You have spent something worth six to get something worth four.

Except you would have never gotten that slot at that level had you not done that. And diminishing returns is a balance thing, a sorcery point to spell slots change based on which way you're converting. But you might need the 4th level slot more.

If that sounds like a great deal to you maybe you can hand me a dollar and I'll give you back 75 cents. Those quarters can be more useful anyway if you happen to need them.

It's how pawning or returning an item works. You get less than what you bought. But people pawn things off because they needed the lesser money more than the pawned item.

And without quicken they were still only matching. I guess at 6th level I was off by one a few times. But still, you aren't getting more spell slots than wizards until then. If you are equal, you do not have more.

But you do have more higher level spell slots possible. It's possible. Maybe you don't like it, but it's been very helpful to me.

By doing what? Creating a first level spell and using Subtle? Congrats. You are out of daily points, and the wizard is ahead of you in spell slots by the end of the day.

You have access to both, but using one cuts the other.

Is resource management such an infringement on your playstyle that you can't fathom opportunity cost? Is making choices so egregiously flawed design that you think sorcery points should only be metamagic? And that's it?

It's just hard to fathom that giving you more options with your resources just does so much wrong in your eyes. Like I said, Paladin's divine smite competes with spellcasting but it's not a bad feature because it competes.

Alright. Pick two. From third to tenth level, for a single campaign, pick two of those. That is all you get.

Is it more useful to twin haste, or use cure wounds (hi divine soul) at 30 ft range?

Are you going to fight enough large groups of enemies to make empower at 5th level worth it, or should you take subtle so you can use those 3rd level spells in the royal court.

Decide now, three levels before you even have access to those spells, what the plot is going to be so you can be most effective.

Also, notice how you put Heighten as your third pick? That's because it is so expensive it is a horrid pick before then. If you are playing a campaign that is going to end my level 9, you will never see a single Heighten spell hit the table, because no one picks it.

You want to know why we compare sculpt spell to Careful spell? Because metamagic is so limited it might as well be a subclass choice in and of itself, and the Wizard who wants to be good at evocation has a stronger version of your ability you can pay for at level 3 for free at level 2.

Another place where you're so close yet you don't quite get it. You can just adapt to your metamagic choices.

Here, I'll choose twinned and empowered. Now that I've chosen those, I'll lean more into single target spells like Haste, Invisibility and Fly as well as AoE's like Fireball and shatter. And I can do the twinning and the empowering but if I don't need to, I can focus on manipulating my spell slots how I wish.

/-/-/-/-/*-

I just looked up at the clock and realized I've spent an hour and a half responding to this post. An hour and half dedicated to arguing with someone who is constantly deriding and mocking me. Over a subject I have debated time and time again for years.

I have other responsibilities demanding my attention. I think I am done here.

I don't intend on hurting or attacking you, it's just that it feels like talking to someone that just barely misses my points.

I hope you can complete your responsibilities and have a wonderful day.