D&D 5E Worst Classes Level 1.

[Flamestrike]

In short, if it is "impossible" for one character, it is impossible for them all.

I disagree. An impossible task for one PC might be entirely possible for another PC.

Thats reflected in the rules. A Charisma 8 PC can never succeed in a DC 25 Skill check. A high level Rogue with Expertise and a high ability score and Reliable talent always succeeds in such a task.

 

[Flamestrike]

Not in 5E.

Point me to that rule please.

The rule as I see it leaves that decision in the hands of the DM, seeing as its the DM who determines when a check can be made.

In your games you (as DM) might allow every man and his dog an ability check for every task. That's your right as DM, under the rules as written.

In my games I dont allow such checks, which is also my right in the rules as written. Im the DM. I determine when a PC can make a check, and what the DC is if so.

 

[Flamestrike]

If I were to do one of those tier list things for 1st level characters, I would have trouble with the top tiers.
But the bottom would be easy to me

• Best Class
• Better Classes
• Classes
• Monk, Ranger
• Sorcerer
• Warlock

Warlock really can't leverage short rest spells with its weak 1st level spell list and only 2 spells known.

With 2 short rests (the expected median) Warlocks are spamming 3 spells per long rest, which is on par with a Wizard (with Arcane Recovery). They're not wasting a slot on Mage Armor (they're proficient in light armor at least), and have more HP. They also have the better cantrip in Eldritch blast (same damage as firebolt, but with a better damage type, plus it pairs well with Hex).

In particular Fey Locks can be devastating in low levels, spamming Sleep 1/ short rest.

 

[DND_Reborn]

No, that's not the rules.

The DM determines if a check is allowed, and if so, sets the DC for that check.

The GM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results.

Ability Checks - 5th Edition SRD

If an action has a chance of failure, or if the outcome of that action is not certain, then the DM may call for an ability check to determine success or failure. Otherwise you automatically fail (or succeed) in the task at hand.

If a PC wants to jump to the Moon, or persuade the King to hand over the Kingdom, the outcome is certain (failure). As the outcome is all but certain, there is no check called for by the DM, and the PC just fails. If a PC wants to climb a ladder then there is no check required, there is no check called for by the DM, and the PC just does it.

Players dont call for an ability check. The DM does, and only when that players character has an appreciable chance of success in the task at hand.

The DM determines if a the following:

1. Is success automatic? Yes, no roll is necessary. Everyone succeeds who wants to try.
2. Is success impossible. Yes, no roll is necessary. Everyone fails to want to try.
3. If the answers to 1 and 2 are both no, then the DM:

A. Determines what ability score is used.
B. Determines if a skill proficiency is appropriate.
C. Sets the DC for all who want to attempt the task.
D. The DM calls for the check.

And all players who are attempting the check do so according to the Ability (Proficiency) and DC as set by the DM.

The player initiating the attempt is what makes the DM call for the check.

In your example. Barbarian and Cleric both want to see if they can recall information about the inner workings of the church. The DM decides it is an Intelligence (Religion) check with DC 15. Barbarian has INT 10 so +0. Cleric has INT 12 and Religion proficiency so total +5 (for example). Barbarian's player rolls a 19 (YEAH!) and Cleric's player rolls a 3 (NO!) for total of 8.

Barbarian succeeds, Cleric fails.

The rules do not allow for denying someone a chance to succeed if both success and failure are possible. The DC for a task is the same for all attempts.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I disagree. An impossible task for one PC might be entirely possible for another PC.

Thats reflected in the rules. A Charisma 8 PC can never succeed in a DC 25 Skill check. A high level Rogue with Expertise and a high ability score and Reliable talent always succeeds in such a task.

Did you notice this part of my post? (Bold added for empahsis.)

LOL, true, so my example was a bad one, but it made the point. If the player wants to try something (recalling information) he shouldn't be denied that chance because of his class, background, or lack of proficiency because the ability score includes it by default and the chance of success depends on the die roll.

In short, if it is "impossible" for one character, it is impossible for them all.

(This is different than having a DC so high some characters might make it while others simply can't due to not having good enough modifiers.)

I already acknowledge there is a difference between a task being impossible and the DC simply being so high a character cannot succeed.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Point me to that rule please.

The rule as I see it leaves that decision in the hands of the DM, seeing as its the DM who determines when a check can be made.

In your games you (as DM) might allow every man and his dog an ability check for every task. That's your right as DM, under the rules as written.

In my games I dont allow such checks, which is also my right in the rules as written. Im the DM. I determine when a PC can make a check, and what the DC is if so.

Pg. 174-175 of the PHB.

Page 174:

and page 175:

There you go.

Of course do it the way you want, but that is not according to the RAW. I don't have any issue with it, but you asked for the rules.

 

[Flamestrike]

The DM determines if a the following:

1. Is success automatic? Yes, no roll is necessary. Everyone succeeds who wants to try.
2. Is success impossible. Yes, no roll is necessary. Everyone fails to want to try.
3. If the answers to 1 and 2 are both no, then the DM:

A. Determines what ability score is used.
B. Determines if a skill proficiency is appropriate.
C. Sets the DC for all who want to attempt the task.
D. The DM calls for the check.

And all players who are attempting the check do so according to the Ability (Proficiency) and DC as set by the DM.

The player initiating the attempt is what makes the DM call for the check.

In your example. Barbarian and Cleric both want to see if they can recall information about the inner workings of the church. The DM decides it is an Intelligence (Religion) check with DC 15. Barbarian has INT 10 so +0. Cleric has INT 12 and Religion proficiency so total +5 (for example). Barbarian's player rolls a 19 (YEAH!) and Cleric's player rolls a 3 (NO!) for total of 8.

Barbarian succeeds, Cleric fails.

The rules do not allow for denying someone a chance to succeed if both success and failure are possible. The DC for a task is the same for all attempts.

No, you're doing it wrong.

The correct answer is 'No Barbarian, you have no appreciable chance of success. No check is possible for you. Cleric, you do have an appreciable chance of success, your DC is X.

The DM determines if a check is allowed for the PC asking for the check.

If you disagree, then would you set the same Religion DC for Snookums the Rangers Chimpanzee animal companion, when the Ranger PC buts in and asks you if Snookums can make a Religion check also?

When you're determining if a check is possible, that determination is made relative to the creature that will be making the check. As Snookums has no possible chance of success, he doesnt get a check at all even though he could make the DC 15 Intelligence (Religion) check untrained.

 

[Minigiant]

With 2 short rests (the expected median) Warlocks are spamming 3 spells per long rest, which is on par with a Wizard (with Arcane Recovery). They're not wasting a slot on Mage Armor (they're proficient in light armor at least), and have more HP. They also have the better cantrip in Eldritch blast (same damage as firebolt, but with a better damage type, plus it pairs well with Hex).

In particular Fey Locks can be devastating in low levels, spamming Sleep 1/ short rest.

The issue is the spells known and the spell list.

Warlocks can only know 2 spells at level 1. And their list even with patron expansion is heavily geared to combat. So it is heavily tilted to combat without being the best.

It can get into social with high CHA and skills but it can'tsupport it with its magic nor take all three skills without using their background.

 

[Flamestrike]

The issue is the spells known and the spell list.

Warlocks can only know 2 spells at level 1. And their list even with patron expansion is heavily geared to combat. So it is heavily tilted to combat without being the best.

It can get into social with high CHA and skills but it can'tsupport it with its magic nor take all three skills without using their background.

In my experience as a player/ DM for 40 odd years, the overwhelming context of 1st level adventuring is 'enter dungeon, slay kobolds/ goblins (and maybe some skeletons), defeat the Kobold/ Goblin king, maybe face an Ogre in there somewhere' and hopefully survive.

This seems to be largely the same format used in most adventures published so far as well.

Nothing wrong with 'only being good at combat' at 1st level. In fact, a lot of people are rating the Fighter very high at 1st level, and that's literally all the Fighter can do.

 

[Minigiant]

Actually @Flamestrike and @dnd4vr

You're both wrong.

The gating only happens for sure pure impossibility for the individual.

One character might be able to make a check while the other can't. What matters is the impossiblitiy of the check attempted.

If you can't speak Elven, you can't attempt a check that requires you to speak Elven. Because it is impossible to speak Elven (in this game) without knowing Elven. There's no check for the nonElven speakers.