doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
This is a wild take. Bards don’t contribute more than any other full caster to a given scene.
D&D (2024) YOU are in charge of the next PHB! What do you change?
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Ok but I've demonstrated that historically that's not what they've been. So what you want is at odds with their history, including their recent history (as in 5E they are very much "sword in hand" even if they aren't getting multiple attacks). You're basically describing the Loremaster subclass and nothing else. That would be akin to suggesting all Paladins should be Oath of Vengeance or something.
Clerics are an accidentally-created class that have been a mess in in every edition and after 2E, been a borderline-OP mess. And yeah the line between them and Paladin has always been a confusing one. But I don't think D&D needs to be looking at drastic changes here, because at this point, it's become self-defining. The time for drastic changes was 3E, essentially, and Monte flubbed it - which is why he tried to re-write history with Arcana Unearthed (which I love, but is basically 100% an apology for 3E, or from another perspective a "What I actually wanted to do with 3E!").
I don't think videogames are a good model to pursue with tabletop RPGs though. Videogame class divisions are serving a different purpose, a lot of the time. Thinking about classes as roles can have some value, but in the end, historically videogames have tended to divide stuff up in order to do things like force people to reroll their character a lot and spend more time playing their game, or to really simplify concepts because they were too hard for players, and obviously I think we all know any non-combat aspects of classes in videogames tend to get stripped away (slowly but surely) and replaced with more combat-oriented functionality, which again tends to point them towards narrow focuses. WoW, for example, has like 40-ish subclasses, most of which play like entirely separate classes - I think it's quite a good example of how videogames tend to keep separating stuff out and separating stuff out. Talking of Clerics, WoW does a kind of interesting thing, I think more naively than consciously, which is that the Paladin in WoW is basically both the D&D Cleric and the D&D Paladin, pretty clearly, but the Priest is a separate class entirely with is more like a combination of 4E's Invoker, and 3E/4E's Psion, with a bit of a Far Realm theme to the some of the Psion stuff.
Neonchameleon
Legend
Just kibbitzing, almost all pre-4e Paladins map to the 5e Oath of Devotion. I'm sure there must be someone somewhere who wants that back.
No. I said I want more going to the subclass than the default class to better catch the flavor of different bards
How did Monte drop the ball with 3e clerics? Not that I am huge fan of Monte's work (I am not), but he was not the one in charge of development. He, Skip Williams, and Jonathan Tweet contributed to all three books, but he was not the lead or the person in charge of the design of the PHB. The lead was Jonathan Tweet, who took over after Peter Adkison (the founder of Wizards of the Coast) stepped down from leading the project. Tweet was also the person in charge of the design of the PHB, while Monte Cook was in charge of writing the DMG (and Skip was in charge of writing the Monster Manual)
agreed.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Oh I know, but I was endeavouring to point out he wanted to swap Bards to something that they hadn't been, historically, where they always have been dilettantes with swords (except 3E, where they were just singing idiots). Hence I didn't pick Oath of Devotion and yeah absolutely there are people who want that - there was a "What subclasses would you do in a new PHB?" thread a while back and like multiple people just put in Oath of Devotion and those two other dumb Oaths which are just "Oath of Devotion except more heal-y" and "Oath of Devotion with more movement and really underpowered" or w/o, like where the aesthetics and vibe and so on are identical to Oath of Devotion. I thank the stars that WotC know better than to narrow classes down in 5E. Every 5E character had subclasses which at least tried to open it up conceptually a bit initially and has got more with time.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
I'm being unfair, I'd forgotten Tweet was in charge - it was Tweet who dropped the ball, so AU is more "What I'd have done if I were in charge".
I would like to see odd levels being class features and even levels being subclass features.
Horwath
Legend
Hmm, where to start;
1. Races no longer provide ability score bonuses(penalties). At least not base ones.
2. Ability scores and modifiers go 1-for-1. I.E. 10 is +0, 11(+1), 9(-1), etc...
3. Point buy: 16pt pool
9(-1): 0 pts
10(+0): 1 pt
11(+1): 2 pts
12(+2): 3 pts
13(+3): 5 pts
14(+4): 8 pts
4. Separate pool for ASI's, Combat feats and exploration/social feats.
5. Sub-classes for all classes at 1st level.
6. Add 10th level spells for full casters at 19th level.
7. Remove simple/martial weapon split. All weapons are at martial level. All are proficient with all weapons.
Fighting style(s), Extra attack(s), martial maneuvers, investment in STR/DEX will differentiate martial from non martial character well enough.
8. Remove medium armor. Add buckler with light armor for +1 AC. Normal shield comes with heavy armor proficiency.
9. HDs healing replaced by 4E style of healing surges(25% of max HPs), number per long rest depends on class and extra feat(ures).
10. Short rests removed or made really short. I.E. 1 minute with 2 or 3 limit before long rest.
11. Long rest 10hrs long with 8hrs sleep. Elves can wiggle down this to 6hrs(4+2).
12. Races(lineages) now only add "genetic" abilities.
I.E. ALL elves have keen senses. so they could have proficiency+expertise in Perceptions.
Humans are versatile and fast learners, so they get +2 skill proficiency of choice.
Half-elves are in between so they get proficiency in Perception, plus one skill of choice or expertise in Perception(to describe stronger elven blood).
Low-light vision/darkvision is also genetic, so is base speed and forms of movement in addition to walking(swim, burrow, climb, fly, teleport).
So are resistances and immunities to various type of damage or spells.
Dwarves are tough so they get extra HPs, resistance to poison and disease or similar things.
Culture and/or background can add most of bonus skills to characters or maybe armor proficiency or fighting style.
13. add 2/3rd caster: 1st level spells at 1st level(but less spell slots than full caster at 1st level),
2nd level spells at 4th level,
3rd at 7th,
4th at 10th,
5th at 13th,
6th at 16th,
7th at 19th.
14. completely try to avoid getting brand new abilities at higher levels.
Base level of all abilities should be acquired by levels 10 or 11.
After that it should be just improvement on existing abilities and/or more usage per rest.
15. you can only get 4 long rests outside "relative" safe place. After that you need extended rest. 3 nights in a row at a safe "haven".
5th long rest in a row(and after) only recharges HPs, up to half healing surges and exhaustion cannot be improved above 2nd level if any.
no other "per long rest" abilities are recharged and you get only one short rest to use between long rests.
think of this as "weekday/weekend" mechanics.
16. return of "max dex modifier" for every type of armor. That way we can avoid having least amount of dex or max amount of dex characters.
I.E. padded armor could have max dex of +6 and fullplate of +0.
Light armor:
padded: 11 AC, max dex +6
leather: 12 AC, max dex +5
studded leather: 13 AC, max dex +4
hide: 14 AC, max dex +3
heavy armor:
scale: 14 AC, max dex +4, disadvantage on stealth
breastplate: 15 AC, max dex +3, disadvantage on stealth
chainmail: 16 AC, max dex +2, disadvantage on stealth
halfplate: 17 AC, max dex +1, disadvantage on stealth
plate: 18 AC, max dex +0, disadvantage on stealth
17. Multiclassing can only be done with 2 classes, and both need to be within one level of each other. No cheesy dips.
1. Races no longer provide ability score bonuses(penalties). At least not base ones.
2. Ability scores and modifiers go 1-for-1. I.E. 10 is +0, 11(+1), 9(-1), etc...
3. Point buy: 16pt pool
9(-1): 0 pts
10(+0): 1 pt
11(+1): 2 pts
12(+2): 3 pts
13(+3): 5 pts
14(+4): 8 pts
4. Separate pool for ASI's, Combat feats and exploration/social feats.
5. Sub-classes for all classes at 1st level.
6. Add 10th level spells for full casters at 19th level.
7. Remove simple/martial weapon split. All weapons are at martial level. All are proficient with all weapons.
Fighting style(s), Extra attack(s), martial maneuvers, investment in STR/DEX will differentiate martial from non martial character well enough.
8. Remove medium armor. Add buckler with light armor for +1 AC. Normal shield comes with heavy armor proficiency.
9. HDs healing replaced by 4E style of healing surges(25% of max HPs), number per long rest depends on class and extra feat(ures).
10. Short rests removed or made really short. I.E. 1 minute with 2 or 3 limit before long rest.
11. Long rest 10hrs long with 8hrs sleep. Elves can wiggle down this to 6hrs(4+2).
12. Races(lineages) now only add "genetic" abilities.
I.E. ALL elves have keen senses. so they could have proficiency+expertise in Perceptions.
Humans are versatile and fast learners, so they get +2 skill proficiency of choice.
Half-elves are in between so they get proficiency in Perception, plus one skill of choice or expertise in Perception(to describe stronger elven blood).
Low-light vision/darkvision is also genetic, so is base speed and forms of movement in addition to walking(swim, burrow, climb, fly, teleport).
So are resistances and immunities to various type of damage or spells.
Dwarves are tough so they get extra HPs, resistance to poison and disease or similar things.
Culture and/or background can add most of bonus skills to characters or maybe armor proficiency or fighting style.
13. add 2/3rd caster: 1st level spells at 1st level(but less spell slots than full caster at 1st level),
2nd level spells at 4th level,
3rd at 7th,
4th at 10th,
5th at 13th,
6th at 16th,
7th at 19th.
14. completely try to avoid getting brand new abilities at higher levels.
Base level of all abilities should be acquired by levels 10 or 11.
After that it should be just improvement on existing abilities and/or more usage per rest.
15. you can only get 4 long rests outside "relative" safe place. After that you need extended rest. 3 nights in a row at a safe "haven".
5th long rest in a row(and after) only recharges HPs, up to half healing surges and exhaustion cannot be improved above 2nd level if any.
no other "per long rest" abilities are recharged and you get only one short rest to use between long rests.
think of this as "weekday/weekend" mechanics.
16. return of "max dex modifier" for every type of armor. That way we can avoid having least amount of dex or max amount of dex characters.
I.E. padded armor could have max dex of +6 and fullplate of +0.
Light armor:
padded: 11 AC, max dex +6
leather: 12 AC, max dex +5
studded leather: 13 AC, max dex +4
hide: 14 AC, max dex +3
heavy armor:
scale: 14 AC, max dex +4, disadvantage on stealth
breastplate: 15 AC, max dex +3, disadvantage on stealth
chainmail: 16 AC, max dex +2, disadvantage on stealth
halfplate: 17 AC, max dex +1, disadvantage on stealth
plate: 18 AC, max dex +0, disadvantage on stealth
17. Multiclassing can only be done with 2 classes, and both need to be within one level of each other. No cheesy dips.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
This ignore system produces some unfortunate results lol.
Last edited:
Similar Threads
D&D General
6 Core Classes: You are in charge
