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D&D 5E Does the Artificer Suck?

One can compare the best artificer (battlesmith) to a so so ranger build (hunter) and yeah the ranger is stomping it for damage.

Throw in something like gloomstalker and yeah the battlesmith is losing that one.

And the battlesmith is the best one. Throw in sharpshooter it's a blowout.

The Battlesmith can take sharpshooter. Why on Oerth is your Battlesmith not using a repeating shot infused crossbow? He comes equipped with his own meatshield in the Steel Defender, after all.

Ultimately, though, you folks seem to be undervaluing the power of flexibility. Maybe most of you play in large parties, or something. But when you need a couple of bases covered, the Artificer's your guy! My battlesmith holds his own well enough in a fight and he's a decent healer/support caster and he's the party sneak, lock, and trap expert, and the overall party problem-solver, because he's the smartest guy in the room. That's a lot of ands, even before the infusions kick in.

And, most importantly, with all those tools in the box... he's FUN TO PLAY. Not just in a tactical combat way.
 
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The Battlesmith can take sharpshooter. Why on Oerth is your Battlesmith not using a repeating shot infused crossbow? He comes equipped with his own meatshield in the Steel Defender, after all.

Ultimately, though, you folks seem to be undervaluing the power of flexibility. Maybe most of you play in large parties, or something. But when you need a couple of bases covered, the Artificer's your guy! My battlesmith holds his own well enough in a fight and he's a decent healer/support caster and he's the party sneak, lock, and trap expert, and the overall party problem-solver, because he's the smartest guy in the room. That's a lot of ands, even before the infusions kick in.

I would do that. The Battlesmith is the best one and is a lot more competitive with say a ranger or paladin.

The best artificer though I rate roughly on par with an average Paladin or Ranger.

Bust out the best ranger and Paladin archetypes though.....

The Battlesmith is also a bit ahead of the other artificer subclasses. Armorer and Artillerist have issues.
 

I would do that. The Battlesmith is the best one and is a lot more competitive with say a ranger or paladin.

The best artificer though I rate roughly on par with an average Paladin or Ranger.

Yeah, you've already said that, several times, I think. And then you start talking about damage.

I'm talking about a ton of stuff that isn't damage. Yes, I know that the other stuff isn't easy to quantify, so it is more difficult to talk about, but I think your statements drastically under-value the other stuff.
 

Yeah, you've already said that, several times, I think. And then you start talking about damage.

I'm talking about a ton of stuff that isn't damage. Yes, I know that the other stuff isn't easy to quantify, so it is more difficult to talk about, but I think your statements drastically under-value the other stuff.

What about other classes who do other stuff and can deal decent damage?

Clerics come to mind. Bards, Divine Soul.....

And all of those classes have multiple good types. Artillerist for example doesn't get much from the sharpshooter feat. Armorer same problem until level 9 or 10.

Alchemist bottom feeder.
 

I think you're making magic item more common than intended by the text, while this choice is shown as the DM's choice by the book, not the expected standard campaign. 13th level characters in the campaign I currently run all have a magic weapon, but nothing more than +1. They don't suck and can handle the challenges quite well. Nothing breaks. I felt I was running it as intended... and to be honest I don't think my group deserves to be laughed at for playing this way. Especially since it's supported by the rules.


The DMG does says, as you mention, that "a character doesn't typically find rare items before around level 5", but it doesn't mean that they typically find a +1 armor at level 5. Saying that one typically doesn't become president of his country before age 40 doesn't mean people typically becomes president at 40. After level 5, it's possible to find them, but it could still be a noticeworthy event.

To support this position, I'll quote another part of the same section : "most magic items are so rare that they aren't available for purchase [...] common items, such as potions of healing, can be procured [...] Doing so is rarely as simple as walking into a shop and selecting an item from the shelf. The seller might ask for a service rather than coin". While I could understand your reading of "typically" finding items taken in isolation, I get from the remainder of the text than magic shops are inexistant (barring of course DM intervention) even for lowly healing potions and other common items. I agree that most players would be nonplussed if the famed relic they found in the tomb of a holy man was a common potion of healing, but I think there is support for a default game were magic items are quite extraordinary. In these worlds, even the so-so list of artificers infusions can shine.

Of course, you could have more magic-rich world but, to keep quoting the DMG "Magic items might be for sale in bazars or auction house in fantastical locations such as the city of Brass, the planar metropolis of Sigil or even in more ordinary cities". Basically, if you need to get to the elemental plane of fire to trade rare item like a +2 sword or a +1 armor, having the infusions is worth it. Having them available in large cities is a deviation from the intended play, and I wonder why it is supposed to be bad faith to mention that they represent a good setting for artificers to thrive.

Let's look at the actual expected distribution, since we get hard and fast rules for those and not just general DMing advice.

According to the treasure finding rule, adventuring groups can find +1 weapons on table F, +2 weapons on table G, +1 armor on table G, +3 weapons and best +1 armor on table H and a few +2 armor and +3 armor on table I. Over a full campaign, the make :

7 rolls on the 0-4 CR table, with 12% chance of making 1d4 roll on the F table and 3% chance on the G table.

At this point, they have 32% chance of not even having rolled on the relevant table. Rolling does give you 15% chance of weapon +1 and 11% of a +2 weapon on the G table and another 10% of +1 equivalent weapons. So that's on average 0.31 +1 weapon from the first table and 0.052 from the G table and 0.057 +2 weapon. Put it another way, you could find a +2 weapon before level 5, which would make artificers pale, but the odd of it are a little under 2%. The odd of having no magic weapon at all are 68%.

18 rolls on the 5-10 table, with 11% chance of making 1d4 rolls on the F table, 4% on the G table and 2% on the H table

After the middle of their adventuring life provided they don't end their campaign here, the odd of having no magics weapon are much lower, but still 17.8%. On average, they would get a little over one magic weapon at this point (for the whole group), when the artificer can assuredly provide a +2 weapon. It is its apex, though, as he won't be able to get +3 weapons through infusions. However, the remaining odds on the :

12 rolls on the 11-16 table
8 rolls on the CR17+ table

Will just guarantee that everyone gets a +1 weapon, not a +2 one. So I definitely think that the playstyle where everyone gets his own +1 weapon around level 5, at the tier barrier, isn't the "default" playstayle against which the game is balanced.

You mention Xanatar's advice to be "generous" with magic item. It's true it is written in XGtE, though the quote is a little longer "Magic items can go from nice to necessary in the rare group that has no spellcasters, no monk, and non NPCs capable of casting Magic Weapon. Having no magic makes it extremely difficult for a party to overcome monster with resistances or immunity to nonmagical damage. In such a game, you'll want to be generous with magic weapons or else avoid using such monsters." I don't read this sentence as an incentive to be generous in all case, only in the extremely narrow case described just above. I have, in my experience, never met a group without magic users. I won't say they don't exist and maybe are even common, but I feel they are a deviation from the "intended average" against which the magic item rules are balanced.

The rules Xanathar provide for given items, but over the 1-10 levels of play, a group is only supposed to acquire 7 uncommon major items and 1 rare major item. If you respect the roughly 15% distribution of magic weapons among major items, that's a 1 or 2 +1 weapon among the whole group and maybea +1 armour... that are the staples of the artificer's infusions. In the extreme case of a party without spellcaster, where the DM is incited to be generous with magic weapons (but not advised to change the overall number of magic item), the 20 major items the party will find over its adventuring carreer wil be just enough to equip them all with +2 weapons and armors.
Your defending the problem by noting the conflicting design. I quoted the be generous with magic items from xge earlier but more importantly any attempt to paint
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as " more common than intended by the text" is flatly absurd given the prices of mundane weapons and mundane armor in the phb. You & a few others are so far out in the weeds trying to be "right" that you are avoiding the point.

OK. So since you're saying "+1 weapon", you're talking about an artificer under level 6, where infusions become better than +1 weapons due to their additional effects.
And since you're talking about "beating" +1 weapons, which are uncommon, we're talking about rare items. Rare Major magic items since its weapons.
So according to the tables in XGE, that you're using as a guide: Levels 1-4 a party has no chance of finding a Rare major magic item. We've established that you're referring to under level 6, so level 5 is the only period for a party to discover a Rare magic weapon that meets your criteria.
By the time a party hits level 10, they should have found one Rare major item. The closer the party gets to level 10, the more likely that that is the level at which they get it. So there is probably a 10% chance of it occurring at level 5, if that. Maybe 30% chance that this Rare major item happens to be a weapon. A one in three chance that your character is the one who gets the weapon rather than someone else in the party.
Note that this is "a weapon". No guarantee its one you can use, let alone the optimal choice.

So it would appear that when you claim "its not all that hard", you were referring to a 1% chance.
Now a DM can always choose to be more generous to the party by giving them more magic items, or allowing them to choose whatever they want as opposed to the standard rolls. Does that tend to happen a lot in your group?


So, that depicts what seems to be a more standard and common way of playing D&D.

Could you perhaps explain why that style deserves to be laughed at rather than accepting that it is just as valid as your own where the DM appears to be considerably more generous to you?

Cut the snark. I literally provided the page from the dmg phb xge & alpg showing a trivial cost for +1 weapons earlier. You keep going on about multiple powerful magic items, the infusion list not meeting that bar is relevant. 100-501gp is not a high bar compared to the prices on mundane phb weapons & armor, it's extremely relevant that artificer is saving that trivial amount as a class feature. Wotc may not have bothered to include a wealth by level chart but when mundane weapons reach as high as 75gp & four different mundane flavors of armor in the phb fall squarely between or above 100-501gp it's absolutely "not all that hard".
 
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I would do that. The Battlesmith is the best one and is a lot more competitive with say a ranger or paladin.

The best artificer though I rate roughly on par with an average Paladin or Ranger.

Bust out the best ranger and Paladin archetypes though.....

The Battlesmith is also a bit ahead of the other artificer subclasses. Armorer and Artillerist have issues.

What about other classes who do other stuff and can deal decent damage?

Clerics come to mind. Bards, Divine Soul.....

And all of those classes have multiple good types. Artillerist for example doesn't get much from the sharpshooter feat. Armorer same problem until level 9 or 10.

Alchemist bottom feeder.
Based on what?

The artillerist adds d8 damage to damage cantrips that clerics or sorcerers might use for similar damage, and can add 2d8 force damage from the cannon for more damage (3d8 at 9th level) or spam temp hp like the twilight cleric you mentioned. The versatility of the extra damage or thp is better than having only one of those options, but ~5d8 damage at will starting at 5th level from cantrips seems decent to me.

The artillerist also carries thunderwave, shatter, and fireball; and can improve his own casting implement via infusion.

Armorer bypasses STR for armor req's and applies INT for attacks and damage, and each gauntlet counts as a simple melee weapon. The gauntlets can be used for TWF with base d8 damage applying INT and disadvantage to attacks against anyone but the armorer (a high AC target). A 6th level armorer (gains extra attack) spamming that attack is less MAD than paladins or rangers and applies disadvantage to more opponents and/or attacks than the less damaging vicious mockery by far. ~3d8+8 damage in the levels we're talking that also reduces incoming damage isn't bad.

The armorer also carries thunderwave, shatter, and lightning bolt.

Alchemists do run into damage issues in comparison because they need to burn a spell slot (flaming sphere) to leverage their bonus action while spamming cantrips for the typical 2d8 or 2d10 (I used acid splash instead for the extra target option) +4 and add flaming sphere damage. I would argue adding extra healing and versatility for less damage is a different form of useful; but if you think damage is the big indicator then one subclass doesn't mean a class sucks.

Rangers, paladins, bards, and clerics still don't get infusions. You keep posting what different classes get while dismissing what artificers get instead, and when those are pointed out change which class is being compared.
 


Based on what?

The artillerist adds d8 damage to damage cantrips that clerics or sorcerers might use for similar damage, and can add 2d8 force damage from the cannon for more damage (3d8 at 9th level) or spam temp hp like the twilight cleric you mentioned. The versatility of the extra damage or thp is better than having only one of those options, but ~5d8 damage at will starting at 5th level from cantrips seems decent to me.

The artillerist also carries thunderwave, shatter, and fireball; and can improve his own casting implement via infusion.

Armorer bypasses STR for armor req's and applies INT for attacks and damage, and each gauntlet counts as a simple melee weapon. The gauntlets can be used for TWF with base d8 damage applying INT and disadvantage to attacks against anyone but the armorer (a high AC target). A 6th level armorer (gains extra attack) spamming that attack is less MAD than paladins or rangers and applies disadvantage to more opponents and/or attacks than the less damaging vicious mockery by far. ~3d8+8 damage in the levels we're talking that also reduces incoming damage isn't bad.

The armorer also carries thunderwave, shatter, and lightning bolt.

Alchemists do run into damage issues in comparison because they need to burn a spell slot (flaming sphere) to leverage their bonus action while spamming cantrips for the typical 2d8 or 2d10 (I used acid splash instead for the extra target option) +4 and add flaming sphere damage. I would argue adding extra healing and versatility for less damage is a different form of useful; but if you think damage is the big indicator then one subclass doesn't mean a class sucks.

Rangers, paladins, bards, and clerics still don't get infusions. You keep posting what different classes get while dismissing what artificers get instead, and when those are pointed out change which class is being compared.

Light cleric vs artillerist spell list. The extra 1d8 looks cute but potent cantrip or the dragon sorcerer's Cha to damage.

Also the spell Spirit Guardiansin conjunction with a cantrip.

Spiritual Weapon as well.

Some clerics eg arcane and nature also get druid or wizard cantrips.

Light cleric can upcast Spirit Guardians, use radiance of the dawn, a cantrip or whatever.

Tempest Cleric maximised shatters plus any of the other spells.

Etc.

Variant rule from Tasha's they all get the d8 at level 8.

So they dont nova that well and the artillerist and battlesmith extra sources of damage can get killed/destroyed.

And level 5 is one of those cherry picked levels where it's a best case scenario for an artificer. The artillerist and battlesmith that's their best level relative to everything else.
 

Based on what?

The artillerist adds d8 damage to damage cantrips that clerics or sorcerers might use for similar damage, and can add 2d8 force damage from the cannon for more damage (3d8 at 9th level) or spam temp hp like the twilight cleric you mentioned. The versatility of the extra damage or thp is better than having only one of those options, but ~5d8 damage at will starting at 5th level from cantrips seems decent to me.

The artillerist also carries thunderwave, shatter, and fireball; and can improve his own casting implement via infusion.

Armorer bypasses STR for armor req's and applies INT for attacks and damage, and each gauntlet counts as a simple melee weapon. The gauntlets can be used for TWF with base d8 damage applying INT and disadvantage to attacks against anyone but the armorer (a high AC target). A 6th level armorer (gains extra attack) spamming that attack is less MAD than paladins or rangers and applies disadvantage to more opponents and/or attacks than the less damaging vicious mockery by far. ~3d8+8 damage in the levels we're talking that also reduces incoming damage isn't bad.

The armorer also carries thunderwave, shatter, and lightning bolt.

Alchemists do run into damage issues in comparison because they need to burn a spell slot (flaming sphere) to leverage their bonus action while spamming cantrips for the typical 2d8 or 2d10 (I used acid splash instead for the extra target option) +4 and add flaming sphere damage. I would argue adding extra healing and versatility for less damage is a different form of useful; but if you think damage is the big indicator then one subclass doesn't mean a class sucks.

Rangers, paladins, bards, and clerics still don't get infusions. You keep posting what different classes get while dismissing what artificers get instead, and when those are pointed out change which class is being compared.
+1d8 damage to cantrips certainly sounds more impressive than 0.5 average damage above/below what an 18/20 strength or dex mod adds to each attack made by a relevant weapon not subject to energy resist & magic resist. That of course is why it doesn't get phrased that way when talking it up with an inflated worth.

Artillerists absolutely get the first level spell thunnderwave, second level spell shatter, & third level spell fireball except instead of getting them at levels 1 3 & 5 they get them at levels 3 5 & 9 to ensure they barely keep up with cantrip damage for most of them. At level5 fireball is pretty impressive... at level 9?... not even slightly & it's on the cusp of falling further behind at level 11.

Despite recovering nothing on a short rest artillerist actually has a mechanical cost to the group saying "lets take a short rest" after a fight. The flame & force turrets certainly sound fancy, but their speed & poor damage alongside the sheer effectiveness of "and I pulse my heal turret" every round ensures they can basically never use them before level fifteen when they can bring out a second turret with the same 1hr duration
.
 

+1d8 damage to cantrips certainly sounds more impressive than 0.5 average damage above/below what an 18/20 strength or dex mod adds to each attack made by a relevant weapon not subject to energy resist & magic resist. That of course is why it doesn't get phrased that way when talking it up with an inflated worth.

Artillerists absolutely get the first level spell thunnderwave, second level spell shatter, & third level spell fireball except instead of getting them at levels 1 3 & 5 they get them at levels 3 5 & 9 to ensure they barely keep up with cantrip damage for most of them. At level5 fireball is pretty impressive... at level 9?... not even slightly & it's on the cusp of falling further behind at level 11.

Despite recovering nothing on a short rest artillerist actually has a mechanical cost to the group saying "lets take a short rest" after a fight. The flame & force turrets certainly sound fancy, but their speed & poor damage alongside the sheer effectiveness of "and I pulse my heal turret" every round ensures they can basically never use them before level fifteen when they can bring out a second turret with the same 1hr duration
.

It's decent level 5.

2d10+1d8+2d8 24.5 avg
Fighter 1d8+6 perhaps X2 21 avg
Rogue 1d8+4+3d6 19 avg

Assuming turret doesn't get destroyed. That's at best lvl 5 though. Mostly ignoring feats.
 

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