D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

Removing those (and AGAIN please do remove any racist descriptions like in Volos) leaves us, 5e D&D, with some small abilities, but even those (Luck, Cantrips, Orcs stand up) have been argued as something that should exist, so what's left? Appearance.
Why are we diminishing appearance as a meaningful form of difference? In the real world, the extremely minor variation of human appearance has led to the entire edifice of racism, institutional and interpersonal.

In fantasy, appearance could be a kind of world-building cue. For example, you could say "orcs have tusk-like teeth" (biological difference, noticeable as appearance). "For this reason, they are thought to be 'ferocious' by x and y clan of dwarves, even though this is not the case."

So there's a lack of nuance in saying that the descriptions as currently written are racist, and therefore the entire description should be removed. Or that the way that cultural difference is articulated is reductive, and therefore all reference to cultural difference should be removed. Rather, what those of us concerned about these kind of things want are different ways of thinking about difference in fantasy worlds.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
What really gets me is that people here are all up in arms over "racist" racial ASIs, because there are real life instances where traits like that have been used against a minority. Yet by far the single most common trait used to justify racism in real life isn't genetic strength or speed, but appearance. Yet no one is clamoring to stop elves, dwarves, gnomes, orcs, etc. from genetically looking different from humans. They're missing the forest for the trees.
 
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Scribe

Legend
Why are we diminishing appearance as a meaningful form of difference? In the real world, the extremely minor variation of human appearance has led to the entire edifice of racism, institutional and interpersonal.

In fantasy, appearance could be a kind of world-building cue. For example, you could say "orcs have tusk-like teeth" (biological difference, noticeable as appearance). "For this reason, they are thought to be 'ferocious' by x and y clan of dwarves, even though this is not the case."

So there's a lack of nuance in saying that the descriptions as currently written are racist, and therefore the entire description should be removed. Or that the way that cultural difference is articulated is reductive, and therefore all reference to cultural difference should be removed. Rather, what those of us concerned about these kind of things want are different ways of thinking about difference in fantasy worlds.
So, I agree that appearance has in the real world been the driver for racism, but we aren't arguing that only humans should exist, and that they should all look the same.

People can think on what difference means all they like, no problem.

I guess I don't follow what the intent is behind pointing this out, sorry.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
Either. A: Fantasy is inherently flawed from a perspective of biologically distinct humanoids, and all must be rendered down to an acceptable similar potential. Funny Hats.
Or. B: It is understood that different Fantasy biological humanoids can be faster/stronger/hardier or have otherwise 'magical' properties inherent to their type.

That's really it. Either it's acceptable (B) or it's funny hats.

The above post is a false dichotomy.

As if: Either the D&D race tradition is "acceptable" as-is, or else there can only be "funny hats".

There are so many problems with the above false dichotomy. For example.



In context, "funny hats" means the player is allowed to put the ability score improvement on a chosen ability at level 1. But it is already possible to put an improvement on the chosen ability at level 4. It doesnt matter if the character puts on a funny hat at level 1 or at level 4. The dichotomy is false because it actually claims, "Either there is only funny hats, or else there is only funny hats." The dichotomy is meaningless.



Furthermore, one can even posit that a D&D race actually is superior or inferior, smarter or dumber, and still accommodate floating ability score improvements. The Intelligence of any species will form a bell curve. The extreme outliers are less likely, but still possible. So, if a player wants to play an anomalous orc with an Intelligence score 20, no problem, because such orcs can exist. In other words, because of outliers, the same reason that a female human can have Strength 20 is the same reason that the orc race can have Intelligence 20. One can have both the narrative of D&D racial inequalities, and still empower players to float the ability scores wherever they choose. Thus the posts dichotomy is false because there is no dichotomy. It can be: both, and.



So far, the dichotomy insists, the default rule must punish players who want to play their chosen character. But the threat that the dichotomy imposes is both meaningless and false. Rather, it is ok for the player to play the character they want. D&D works fine, regardless.



The crux re racist tropes in D&D.

These fantasy races are defacto too much like reallife humans. When the game describes them, not by their amazing nonhuman abilities, but by their very human qualities, whether they are smarter or dumber, or stronger or weaker, then these definitions are defacto identical to the way reallife racists describe human "races".

If the definition of the elf race is the ability to do something amazing, like teleport, that seems impossible for any reallife human to do, then that definition of an elf isnt a racist way of thinking. But if the definition of an elf is to tend to be slightly more agile so as to be more likely to win in the Olympic athletic competitions, then that is the way reallife racists think.

Likewise, if the orc race had an amazing ability that seems impossible for any reallife human to do, then that ability would be a nonracist definition of an orc. But if the definition of the orc race is be "below average" Intelligence, and "above average" Strength, that is reallife racism.

These D&D fantasy races are pretended to be "nonhuman" species. If so, let us see these races be able to do things that are obviously nonhuman.

The way things are now, the Players Handbook races pretty much are racist definitions of what a race is.

The way things are now, the Players Handbook races are little more than funny hats. To get a +2 or a +1 to an ability score is a funny hat. It is something that can happen to a human.



To reduce racism in D&D, the solution is to get rid of all ability score improvements. These racial inequalities are problematic and occasionally offensive.

Instead, give each race a choice of feats that can do amazing things that reallife humans cannot do. It needs to be a choice from several feats, because if one feat turns out unintentionally racist, the diversity that is possible helps prevent reductionism to the one stereotype.

Nonhuman capabilities have little or nothing to do with reallife racism.

Feats that grant nonhuman features are no problem.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
That's fine for those other games.

In D&D, by the 5e book, there isn't much.

People have noted the following as concerning in this or similar threads.

ASI as racist.
Fluff descriptions as racist.
Cultural monoliths as racist.

Removing those
(and AGAIN please do remove any racist descriptions like in Volos) leaves us, 5e D&D, with some small abilities, but even those (Luck, Cantrips, Orcs stand up) have been argued as something that should exist, so what's left? Appearance.

Even appearance was commented on as potential fetishism!

If people want to go down all those rabbit holes (2K posts multiple threads...) fine I guess, but I do see those as the most basic expression of the argument that has never been resolved, and I don't believe it's wrong, or a fallacy, or that I'm comparing to some Nazi hellscape (???) in pointing it out.
I love how you claim here that if you remove cultural monoliths then we are somehow left with nothing.
 

And I don't think one can logically argue that whilst simultaneously maintaining that racial traits are not.
Fantasy world building necessitates only a certain internal logic. For example, one might employ simulationist worldbuilding, where you are trying model a world based on certain core principles. The further you take this, the closer you get to a kind of science fiction. But fantasy also incorporates aspects of myth and folklore, which employ a entirely different kind of logic. In faerie story, maybe elves never sleep because they are magical beings. Dnd mixes these two logics together in sometimes haphazard ways, and it produces friction because the implications of something in the latter genre are very different when placed within the former genre.

I think what I want to do (for my own worlds) is center the fiction of the world and then think about the relation between the fiction and two other concerns: 1) the way the fiction is represented in the mechanics and vice versa and 2) the way the fiction relates to the concerns of the players at the table and vice versa. Those two axes might well produce contradictions and logical inconsistencies, where something in the fiction and its mechanical representation makes sense, but when placed in front of players there is something that is, perhaps, uncomfortably resonant with something from their real lives. Then, either I change the fiction and/or the mechanics, or live with the inconsistency.

With regards to keeping or ditching racial ASI, there are already so many inconsistencies with the way ASI are incorporated into the game and variance in interpretation as to what they mean in the fiction, that I find removing them does not really impact the fiction of the implied setting in a really meaningful way (translation: elves are still elf-y without the +2 dex).
 

So, I agree that appearance has in the real world been the driver for racism, but we aren't arguing that only humans should exist, and that they should all look the same.

People can think on what difference means all they like, no problem.

I guess I don't follow what the intent is behind pointing this out, sorry.
Just that I feel that thinking of race as either a) meaningful biological difference or b) meaningless funny hats is overly reductive, as others are also pointing out. You can incorporate many layers of difference, all meaningful, into your worldbuilding (and associated mechanics) while also being mindful and intentional about the way your world does or does not mimic representations of otherness from the real world.
 

Scribe

Legend
Just that I feel that thinking of race as either a) meaningful biological difference or b) meaningless funny hats is overly reductive, as others are also pointing out. You can incorporate many layers of difference, all meaningful, into your worldbuilding (and associated mechanics) while also being mindful and intentional about the way your world does or does not mimic representations of otherness from the real world.
When /If I say meaningless, it's within the context of mechanics, and how those mechanics feed into the cohesiveness of the setting.

I would argue most people when bringing up 'funny hats' are doing the same.

Appearance, within 5e D&D doesn't drive mechanics, in the way ASI, does, within the crunch.

That's all, I'm not saying its meaningless from a real world perspective.
 

Scribe

Legend
I love how you claim here that if you remove cultural monoliths then we are somehow left with nothing.
I am not, others have.

Edit: to be clear, the only thing I feel I've consistently said.

1. Let ASI be both fixed via documentation as per PHB, and floating. Either way as Primary or Optional.

2. I like fixed ASI for world building type restrictions.

That's it.
 
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What really gets me is that people here are all up in arms over "racist" racial ASIs, because there are real life instances where traits like that have been used against a minority. Yet by far the single most common trait used to justify racism in real life isn't genetic strength or speed, but appearance. Yet no one is clamoring to stop elves, dwarves, gnomes, orcs, etc. from genetically looking different from humans. They're missing the forest for the trees.
Why does that get you? The structure of real-world racism is that specific differences in appearance (mostly skin color) index all sorts of other real differences, when in fact that is not the case. What fantasy potentially does that is problematic is create differences between humanoid beings then actually associate those differences with underlying difference.

Would you find interesting humanoid creatures that look the same but have very different underlying abilities? That's a space not as explored in fantasy, aside from changelings.
 

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