D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Jaegermonstrous]

See that's the thing:

If you do it, you are bound to get some things wrong. We all have biases we don't even realize we have. Some of those wrong things could be quite offensive.

If you don't do it, you don't do the research that increases your knowledge of other cultures, every game is fantasy generic Europe.

Further, I think if you're going to make a fantasy setting that's not generic fantasy Europe you should be prepared to get things wrong. It's up to you as the author to decide whether you're going to be a fartbag about it, or if you're going to take genuine constructive criticism and try to make your world more inclusive.

I'm working on a setting right now that coincidentally has Mongolian-inspired Orcish cultures. I'm completely aware I will get things wrong, but I also want to know so I can work to make my setting better.

 

[Zardnaar]

The first Mystara thing I came across was the Shadow Elves thing, with cool underground elves being poisoned by what is basically a nuclear reactor and it was kind of badass/amazing plus I loved the Shadow Elves themselves.

So my bro and I picked up more Mystara stuff. And it was like that meme with the kid grinning and then his jaw drops and he looks upset. Because wooooow most of Mystara was not up to that quality level, it seemed to be basically "Stereotypical presentation of Earth culture with animal-people!" or "Stereotypical presentation of Earth culture with demihumans or humans!" and so on, just like, endlessly.

All these stereotyped cultures from different periods just sitting right next to each other with some dodgy races assigned to them.

We were what, 12-14? And we thought it was dumb as hell. It doesn't look any smarter from 43.

But I'll always have the Shadow Elves!

Yeah Mystara is full of terrible ideas.

Lots of splatorama puke product out the door.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Hollywood skews differently than USA as a whole.

See the 1950's or anti Vietnam War movies late 70's and 80's.

Just something to be aware of.

Sure, but Hollywood is usually in sync with much of the Coasts, and less than a decade ahead of much of the rest of the country, in my experience in my lifetime anyway. And Little Big Man was 1979, and Dances With Wolves (which was wildly popular throughout the US) was 1990. Little Big Man was an anti-establishment film. Yeah, in 1979, those strongly positive takes on Native American culture together with digs at the US military were a bit daring. Dances With Wolves, on the other hand, was utterly safe and establishment film, totally mainstream, with a huge mainstream audience and made insane money.

So things clearly changed from 1979 to 1990. I don't believe that in 1988, it was an unusual view to feel the Native Americans were perhaps hard done by, that calling people "redskins" or mocking Sitting Bull was, like "cool and fun" for the majority of Americans, especially younger Americans, who were the primary audience for D&D products. I'm sure "plenty" of people still thought that, but again, this 1988. Not 1978. You don't go from "The Orcs of Thar was totally normal and cool!" to "Dances With Wolves is incredibly successful, dominates the cultural conversation of the year" in two years.

 

[Zardnaar]

You're gonna think I'm pulling your leg, but I had just pulled down my copy of GAZ2 from the bookshelf to compare it to this one.

The differences between Emirates of Ylaruam and The Orcs of Thar are night-and-day...the tone, the artwork, even the the use of real-world names and historical events were done in a much more vibrant (and tasteful) manner. It's really not a fair comparison.

I thought Ylaraum was bad enough. Sold my copy 1995 iirc.

I'm not really offended by legacy products is main point.

 

[Zardnaar]

Further, I think if you're going to make a fantasy setting that's not generic fantasy Europe you should be prepared to get things wrong. It's up to you as the author to decide whether you're going to be a fartbag about it, or if you're going to take genuine constructive criticism and try to make your world more inclusive.

I'm working on a setting right now that coincidentally has Mongolian-inspired Orcish cultures. I'm completely aware I will get things wrong, but I also want to know so I can work to make my setting better.

Generally better avoided
Until recently I never used a real world culture in D&D.

And that one has been extinct for 2000+ years and I'm not treating them as a joke.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Almost everything is flawed from that era in one way (many ways) or another.

I am certain 30-40 years from now, people will find flaws with much of what people are totting now about what is acceptable and what is not. What direction the discussion will take several decades from now, no one can say, but it will be interesting to find out...

 

[BookTenTiger]

This. So much this.

I am certain 30-40 years from now, people will find flaws with much of what people are totting now about what is acceptable and what is not. What direction the discussion will take several decades from now, no one can say, but it will be interesting to find out...

Discussions like these can also help fans and creators continue to progress as well.

 

[TheAlkaizer]

American Indian Studies

The fact that the study of indigenous cultures is still called that in the US is in itself a problem.

 

[CleverNickName]

I thought Ylaraum was bad enough. Sold my copy 1995 iirc.

You are talking about "bad" as something you don't enjoy. I'm talking about "bad" as in offensive and problematic. They aren't the same thing, and shouldn't be confused with each other.

I'm not really offended by legacy products is main point.

Yes, I picked up on that. Plenty of people are, however, and that's my point.

 

[cowpie]

Hollywood skews differently than USA as a whole.

See the 1950's or anti Vietnam War movies late 70's and 80's.

Just something to be aware of.

To add to your post about how people wouldn't have made much of a ruckus about this back then, I think there's some more context to it.

This product came out at a time when people didn't protest this stuff publicly much. A lot of US Boomers had turned 30, had a mortgage and kids, and stopped being hippie protesters and had turned conservative. Boomers of the time, liberal and conservative, still strongly disapproved of racism, and would oppose hate crimes, but on a personal level. They would not go out and "make a statement" or protest, unless something really egregious happened.

It was a different time because they didn't have communications technology: there was no social media. If you read "Orcs of Thar" in a bookstore and found it offensive, you might tell a friend in person, refuse to buy it for your kid (the most likely result) or write TSR directly, but there was no internet to reach a wider audience. There was no twitter to use as a personal megaphone to raise awareness, almost no email, and no quick way to organize groups of like minded people. You needed to contact a dedicated protest group by landline or snail mail to organize something. It's easy for us now, but back then, you needed lots of money and energy to organize a boycott.

That's a major reason people in the 80s didn't protest this--most had no clue it existed and unless you really cared about it, it wasn't worth the sacrifices to money and family you'd have to make.