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D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

The fact that the study of indigenous cultures is still called that in the US is in itself a problem.

“I hate the word ‘Native American.’ It’s a government term, which was created
in the year 1970 in the Department of the Interior, a generic term that describes
all the prisoners of the United States of America. Those of us who are forced to
live on trust territories, the Micronesians, the original Hawaiians, the Aleuts, the
Inupiats, the Yupiks, who are erroneously called Eskimos, and all of the 500
nations of the American Indians are so-called ‘Native Americans.’ I refuse to be
defined by a government, any government; so I am an Indian. Because I know
where that came from, a bastardization of two Spanish words: In Dios, ‘in with
god.’ And Columbus wrote la gente indio, ‘a people in with God;’ so I much prefer
to be called Indian rather than Native American.”


—Russell Means, Lakota Nation, “The Existential Indian

“I even hesitate to use the term "Native American," since it implies that we are Native citizens
of a colonialist power that conquered and divided the original nations in this continent (none
of whom were "American").”


—Marge Bruchac, Abenaki Nation

"Native American [...] is a term used by guilt-ridden white people."

—Sherman Alexi, Spokane and Coeur d'Alene Indian
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
There’s a difference between editing offensive terminology from old documents and educating people about those terms so that people don’t use them going forward.

A decade or so ago, a publishing company made the decision to edit the offensive terms out of Mark Twain. We (re)bought new copies to ensure we still had access to the original works.

Stuff like that should probably be left as is or have multiple editions.

I read the classics at uni Herodotus, Tacitus (well some of them) and what the Greeks and Romans got up to was interesting.

I wouldn't want someone to deliberately rewrite or censure them. You can improve things going forward censuring the past is not ideal.
 

This is a problematic product by people that could have known better. They just didn’t care to. There are examples of use/appropriation of other cultures that aren’t mocking, attempt to understand, romaticize or otherwise do something that evidences they gave a fark about the source they were using dating back to not just 1988, or 1984, or the dawn of the 20th century but to the very first encounter their civilization had with that culture.

When someone sees the peoples of a group as people and then represents them in their fiction, directly, or as inspiration, for good guys or bad, you can tell. And when they see those people as others who are not people, you can also tell. This is an example of the latter.
 

cowpie

Adventurer
“I hate the word ‘Native American.’ It’s a government term, which was created
in the year 1970 in the Department of the Interior, a generic term that describes
all the prisoners of the United States of America. Those of us who are forced to
live on trust territories, the Micronesians, the original Hawaiians, the Aleuts, the
Inupiats, the Yupiks, who are erroneously called Eskimos, and all of the 500
nations of the American Indians are so-called ‘Native Americans.’ I refuse to be
defined by a government, any government; so I am an Indian. Because I know
where that came from, a bastardization of two Spanish words: In Dios, ‘in with
god.’ And Columbus wrote la gente indio, ‘a people in with God;’ so I much prefer
to be called Indian rather than Native American.”


—Russell Means, Lakota Nation, “The Existential Indian

“I even hesitate to use the term "Native American," since it implies that we are Native citizens
of a colonialist power that conquered and divided the original nations in this continent (none
of whom were "American").”


—Marge Bruchac, Abenaki Nation

"Native American [...] is a term used by guilt-ridden white people."

—Sherman Alexi, Spokane and Coeur d'Alene Indian
I'm going to update the Sherman Alexie (only cause I read this book):

“I used to think the world was broken down by tribes,' I said. 'By Black and White. By Indian and White. But I know this isn't true. The world is only broken into two tribes: the people who are *ssholes and the people who are not.”
― Sherman Alexie, The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
“I hate the word ‘Native American.’ It’s a government term, which was created
in the year 1970 in the Department of the Interior, a generic term that describes
all the prisoners of the United States of America. Those of us who are forced to
live on trust territories, the Micronesians, the original Hawaiians, the Aleuts, the
Inupiats, the Yupiks, who are erroneously called Eskimos, and all of the 500
nations of the American Indians are so-called ‘Native Americans.’ I refuse to be
defined by a government, any government; so I am an Indian. Because I know
where that came from, a bastardization of two Spanish words: In Dios, ‘in with
god.’ And Columbus wrote la gente indio, ‘a people in with God;’ so I much prefer
to be called Indian rather than Native American.”


—Russell Means, Lakota Nation, “The Existential Indian

“I even hesitate to use the term "Native American," since it implies that we are Native citizens
of a colonialist power that conquered and divided the original nations in this continent (none
of whom were "American").”


—Marge Bruchac, Abenaki Nation

"Native American [...] is a term used by guilt-ridden white people."

—Sherman Alexi, Spokane and Coeur d'Alene Indian
Similarly, my Mom will bitch you right out if you call her ”African American”.
 

The kobolds, for example, are a parody of Italian culture. The possibility of you writing a post deriding any of that is exactly zero.

In the thread at the Mystara Piazza, which I linked to in the OP, I did mention that the Machievellian portrayal of Caurenze in GAZ3 (the Glantri Gazetteer) could be along the lines of something which the Sons of Italy might take offense. There are differences though.

1) The "red orcs" are a parody of traditional Indigenous American culture; which is still a living ideal and archetype in present-day Indigenous culture. In contrast, Caurenze is a parody of late medieval Italy of several hundred years ago.

2) The term "red orcs" is very close to a real-world racial slur. In contrast, the kobolds in GAZ10 are not referred to using a real-world ethnic slur for Italians.

3) The Indigenous American nationalities are still emerging from centuries of real racial, cultural, economic, and political oppression in a way that the Italian nationality is not, which has a full-blown nation-state on the map of the world.

4) The Italian cultural elements in the portrayal of the kobolds are relatively slender and few. They are quantifiably less than the American Indian motifs in the "red orcs" passages. For example, in the "Naming Your Character" section, whereas the "red orcs" explicitly feature American Indian-style names, and the "yellow orcs" explicitly feature East Asian names, the kobolds (along with three other humanoid tribes) are grouped under generic "Common Humanoid Names: These are the most gutteral and common names used among the humanoid tribes. Anything that sounds crude will do." They're not given Italian names. The only reference to Italy that I see is that is the title of Kol: "High Doge Kol." "Doge" was the title of head of state within Italian city-states during the medieval and renaissance periods. Doge - Wikipedia

However, Kol's birth name is "Constantine Diocletius" which is an ancient Byzantine-Roman name, not Italian language. Citizens of Kol are said to "love mimicking the Empire of Thyatis, although they do not really understand the difference between a republic and an imperial autocracy." In various sources, Thyatis is explicitly said to be based on ancient Rome and medieval Byzantium. Though I don't deny the cultural connections between ancient Rome and present-day Italians, fictional portrayals of Rome are simply not as delicate a matter as the portrayal of Indigenous American cultures. Again, GAZ10 contains no no ethic slurs for Romans or Greeks or Italians, whereas it does contain "red orc" which based on a real-world racial slur.

Just to be thorough, there are also Roman motifs within Orcus Rex, Turkish and Arab motifs within South Gnollistan, Norse (and U.S. New Yorker!) motifs within Trollhatten, South Asian motifs within Ogremoor, and Nahuatl/Mēxihcah motifs within Oenkmar. The gist of my post is not that all adaptations of real-world-based cultural motifs into a D&D / fantasy context are inherently offensive, but rather, the "yellow orcs" and "red orcs" are especially so, given their similarity to real-world racial slurs. And the pseudo-Indigenous American portrayal is also especially sensitive due to the ongoing cultural subordination of the Indigenous American nations and peoples. I did not delve into the Mesoamerican motifs of Oenkmar, as it appears to be less buffoonish than the portrayal of "Red Orcland", and also because I am less familiar with the indigenous cultures of Mexico.

The OP makes reference to the "sacred" land at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. For those who are unaware, the land the battle was fought on was Crow land. The Sioux, Arapahoe, and Cheyenne who fought the battle had, for lack of a better word, invaded Crown land and the Crow supported the US in expelling the invaders.

It's true that the battle site is within Apsáalooke Issawua, the Traditional Territory of the Apsáalooke (Crow) Nation. Nevertheless, the site is significant (sacred) for all the nations involved. It's not a joke.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
In the thread at the Mystara Piazza, which I linked to in the OP, I did mention that the Machievellian portrayal of Caurenze in the GAZ3 (the Glantri Gazetteer) could be along the lines of something which the Sons of Italy might take offense. There are differences though.

1) The "red orcs" are a parody of traditional Indigenous American culture; which is still a living ideal and archetype in present-day Indigenous culture. In contrast, Caurenze is a parody of late medieval Italy of several hundred years ago.

2) The term "red orcs" is very close to a real-world racial slur. In contrast, the kobolds in GAZ10 are not referred to using a real-world ethnic slur for Italians.

3) The Indigenous American nationalities are still emerging from centuries of real racial, cultural, economic, and political oppression in a way that the Italian nationality is not, which has a full-blown nation-state on the map of the world.

4) The Italian cultural elements in the portrayal of the kobolds are relatively slender and few. They are quantifiably less than the American Indian motifs in the "red orcs" passages. For example, in the "Naming Your Character" section, whereas the "red orcs" explicitly feature American Indian-style names, and the "yellow orcs" explicitly feature East Asian names, the kobolds (along with three other humanoid tribes) are grouped under generic "Common Humanoid Names: These are the most gutteral and common names used among the humanoid tribes. Anything that sounds crude will do." They're not given Italian names. The only reference to Italy that I see is that is the title of Kol: "High Doge Kol." "Doge" was the title of head of state within Italian city-states during the medieval and renaissance periods. Doge - Wikipedia

However, Kol's birth name is "Constantine Diocletius" which is an ancient Byzantine-Roman name, not Italian language. Citizens of Kol are said to "love mimicking the Empire of Thyatis, although they do not really understand the difference between a republic and an imperial autocracy." In various sources, Thyatis is explicitly said to be based on ancient Rome and medieval Byzantium. Though I don't deny the cultural connections between ancient Rome and present-day Italians, fictional portrayals of Rome are simply not as delicate a matter as the portrayal of Indigenous American cultures. Again, GAZ10 contains no no ethic slurs for Romans or Greeks or Italians, whereas it does contain "red orc" which based on a real-world racial slur.

Just to be thorough, there are also Roman motifs within Orcus Rex, Turkish and Arab motifs within South Gnollistan, Norse motifs within Trollhatten, South Asian motifs within Ogremoor, and Nahuatl/Mēxihcah motifs within Oenkmar. The gist of my post is not that all adaptations of real-world-based cultural motifs into a D&D / fantasy context are inherently offensive, but rather, the "yellow orcs" and "red orcs" are especially so, given their similarity to real-world racial slurs. And the pseudo-Indigenous American portrayal is also especially sensitive due to the ongoing cultural subordination of the Indigenous American nations and peoples. I did not delve into the Mesoamerican motifs of Oenkmar, as it appears to be less buffoonish than the portrayal of "Red Orcland", and also because I am less familiar with the indigenous cultures of Mexico.



It's true that the battle site is within Apsáalooke Issawua, the Traditional Territory of the Apsáalooke (Crow) Nation. Nevertheless, the site is significant (sacred) for all the nations involved. It's not a joke.

There's a lot more than that in terms of ripped off cultures. If varying quality and scope.
 


cowpie

Adventurer
In the thread at the Mystara Piazza, which I linked to in the OP, I did mention that the Machievellian portrayal of Caurenze in GAZ3 (the Glantri Gazetteer) could be along the lines of something which the Sons of Italy might take offense. There are differences though.

1) The "red orcs" are a parody of traditional Indigenous American culture; which is still a living ideal and archetype in present-day Indigenous culture. In contrast, Caurenze is a parody of late medieval Italy of several hundred years ago.

2) The term "red orcs" is very close to a real-world racial slur. In contrast, the kobolds in GAZ10 are not referred to using a real-world ethnic slur for Italians.

3) The Indigenous American nationalities are still emerging from centuries of real racial, cultural, economic, and political oppression in a way that the Italian nationality is not, which has a full-blown nation-state on the map of the world.

4) The Italian cultural elements in the portrayal of the kobolds are relatively slender and few. They are quantifiably less than the American Indian motifs in the "red orcs" passages. For example, in the "Naming Your Character" section, whereas the "red orcs" explicitly feature American Indian-style names, and the "yellow orcs" explicitly feature East Asian names, the kobolds (along with three other humanoid tribes) are grouped under generic "Common Humanoid Names: These are the most gutteral and common names used among the humanoid tribes. Anything that sounds crude will do." They're not given Italian names. The only reference to Italy that I see is that is the title of Kol: "High Doge Kol." "Doge" was the title of head of state within Italian city-states during the medieval and renaissance periods. Doge - Wikipedia

However, Kol's birth name is "Constantine Diocletius" which is an ancient Byzantine-Roman name, not Italian language. Citizens of Kol are said to "love mimicking the Empire of Thyatis, although they do not really understand the difference between a republic and an imperial autocracy." In various sources, Thyatis is explicitly said to be based on ancient Rome and medieval Byzantium. Though I don't deny the cultural connections between ancient Rome and present-day Italians, fictional portrayals of Rome are simply not as delicate a matter as the portrayal of Indigenous American cultures. Again, GAZ10 contains no no ethic slurs for Romans or Greeks or Italians, whereas it does contain "red orc" which based on a real-world racial slur.

Just to be thorough, there are also Roman motifs within Orcus Rex, Turkish and Arab motifs within South Gnollistan, Norse motifs within Trollhatten, South Asian motifs within Ogremoor, and Nahuatl/Mēxihcah motifs within Oenkmar. The gist of my post is not that all adaptations of real-world-based cultural motifs into a D&D / fantasy context are inherently offensive, but rather, the "yellow orcs" and "red orcs" are especially so, given their similarity to real-world racial slurs. And the pseudo-Indigenous American portrayal is also especially sensitive due to the ongoing cultural subordination of the Indigenous American nations and peoples. I did not delve into the Mesoamerican motifs of Oenkmar, as it appears to be less buffoonish than the portrayal of "Red Orcland", and also because I am less familiar with the indigenous cultures of Mexico.



It's true that the battle site is within Apsáalooke Issawua, the Traditional Territory of the Apsáalooke (Crow) Nation. Nevertheless, the site is significant (sacred) for all the nations involved. It's not a joke.
Yes, but were any Kobolds offended that they were portrayed as Sons of Italy? That's what I'd like to know! :rolleyes:
 

Voadam

Legend
These are problematic facets in GAZ10: (Note: "PG" refers to the Players' Guide; "DMG" refers to the DM's Booklet.)

#1: Misappropriation of "gris-gris", from the Vodun culture of West Africa.

#2: The use of the term "yellow orc" and "Yellow Orkia" to refer to an East Asian (Mongolian/Chinese/Tibetan/Bhutanese)-inspired orcish culture.

#3: Misappropriation of the honored Lakota leader Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake "Sitting Bull", in the form of "Big Chief Sitting Drool."

#4: The use of the term "red orc" and "Red Orcland" to refer to an American Indian-inspired orcish culture.


#5: A "notorious" misappropriation of the name of the Nakota (Assiniboine/Stoney) nation.


#6: Insensitive reference to the phrase: "The Only Good Indian Is a Dead Indian".
That is hardly a comprehensive list from GAZ10.

1639806340246.png

Nothing about Central American Oenkmarh?

1639806573107.png

Nothing possibly problematic here?
1639806802328.png
 

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