(I know you can't respond, but this is still relevant to the discussion as a whole.)the Spanish empire wasn't the "evil empire" if we compare with the actions by the rest
An other term for "empire" is, "predatory economy".(I know you can't respond, but this is still relevant to the discussion as a whole.)
Counterpoint: All empires are evil. It's inherent in being an empire. I am very willing to call the actions of the English Empire evil, and those of the French Empire, and the Spanish Empire, and the Roman Empire, and the actions of the American Empire, and the "empire" of Alexander the Great.
So, no, "whatabout X empire in comparison" is not a valid response. All of them did evil things.
I'm going to guess that TSR decided that it was "clearly" supposed to be a joke and felt that nobody would be really offended because it was so clearly a joke. And didn't realize that "I was only joking" doesn't actually excuse anything.I feel like one purpose in examining works in the past is to learn how to do better. TSR should have done better. They should have recognized the racism and just mean quality of this work. And they didn't.
For all the problems that OA and al-Qadim had, at least they, for the most part, tried to honor the societies they emulated. That's always better than insults, even if intended to be humorI'm going to guess that TSR decided that it was "clearly" supposed to be a joke and felt that nobody would be really offended because it was so clearly a joke. And didn't realize that "I was only joking" doesn't actually excuse anything.
But they razed it not just with their couple of hundred troops that were, even with their steel and guns, vastly outmatched by the aztec army. They fell because they've been an oppressive empire of their own and the subjugated tribes rose as willing auxiliaries to the spainiards to bring down the hated oppressors (little did they expect to trade them for an even worse oppressor)As for the Conquistadors
We could ask the people of Tenochtitlan how good the Spanish were, but they're nearly entirely and completely dead after their city was razed
Okay, I see what you're getting at Voadam. And I see the relevance.
I just don't want to make scattershot accusations where it's not certain. I try to focus on what is certain. And text is often more straightforward than imagery.
Ruin Explorer, I generally agree with how you characterize my approach and research limitations.
I can see that the first image Voadam shared could be interpreted as a parody of a Black woman. The modern-style spandex top contributes to that perception. Yet it's not as straightforward as the textual elements. If this illustration was for a "Black Orcs" section of the book, then it would be certain. I'm definitely willing to call TSR/WotC/Hasbro to the carpet; but analyzing stereotypical motifs within imagery is beyond my expertise, unless it's certainly obvious. Still, Voadam, you make a valid point.
As for the image of breakdancing and the boombox. As others have expressed, my initial impression is that it is a primarily a parody of punk culture (the mohawk and piercings), of boombox culture, and of breakdancing culture. I could see that the fact that breakdancing arose in an African American context could be problematic. I'm not sure of the nuances here though. If any of the humanoids were depicted with Black/African physiognomy (e.g. kinky hair or black skin), it would be more obviously problematic.
Yes, there's a parody of the Mesoamerican Ballgame. I acknowledge that the goofy depiction of the Mesoamerican Ballgame is an appropriation of Nahuatl / Indigenous Mexica culture. I wonder what parameters a professional Nahuatl cultural consultant would suggest in regard to fantasy depictions of the Mesoamerican Ballgame.
I've started to look more closely at the Oenkmar chapter. Yet another reason for my "skipping" over that chapter is that I have not seen a racial slur associated with the Oenkmarians, in the way that the term "red orcs" and "yellow orcs" are close to real-world racial slurs. My goal in the OP was not to document every real-world cultural motif which is found in GAZ10 (or Mystara as a whole!). I went into extra detail with "Red Orcland" and "Yellow Orkia" simply to nail down the fact that the racial terms "red" and "yellow" are definitely referring to "Indigenous American" and "East Asian" parodies.
Yet I'll state again that my research is not inherently opposed to fantasy adaptations of Mesoamerican, Indigenous North American, or East Asian cultural elements. My research is opposed to racial slurs of any sort, and to disrespectful adaptations of real world cultures, especially marginalized / indigenous cultures.
But they razed it not just with their couple of hundred troops that were, even with their steel and guns, vastly outmatched by the aztec army. They fell because they've been an oppressive empire of their own and the subjugated tribes rose as willing auxiliaries to the spainiards to bring down the hated oppressors (little did they expect to trade them for an even worse oppressor)
Also nine tenths of the population has already died from diseases like swine flu (which spread from pigs released into Florida all the way across the country), so all the power structures were a mess. Folks who wanted more power took advantage of the Spanish invasion to take down those in charge.But they razed it not just with their couple of hundred troops that were, even with their steel and guns, vastly outmatched by the aztec army. They fell because they've been an oppressive empire of their own and the subjugated tribes rose as willing auxiliaries to the spainiards to bring down the hated oppressors (little did they expect to trade them for an even worse oppressor)
Yes, then the Spanish killed them too.But they razed it not just with their couple of hundred troops that were, even with their steel and guns, vastly outmatched by the aztec army. They fell because they've been an oppressive empire of their own and the subjugated tribes rose as willing auxiliaries to the spainiards to bring down the hated oppressors (little did they expect to trade them for an even worse oppressor)
Also nine tenths of the population has already died from diseases like swine flu (which spread from pigs released into Florida all the way across the country), so all the power structures were a mess. Folks who wanted more power took advantage of the Spanish invasion to take down those in charge.
Yes, then the Spanish killed them too.
This isn't the proof of the goodness of Conquistadors
Do you have a source on that? Because that's almost exactly what happened for much of the native populations.It's not like the Spanish turned up, 90% conveniently died and they ate what was left.
I got my information from the book 1491. What is your source for the exaggeration?The 90% is a bit misqouted.
Varied by region and mist died after the Spanish conquest.
Think 90% was more applicable to North America.
It's not like the Spanish turned up, 90% conveniently died and they ate what was left.
It did throw the social structure of the Incas into chaos though.
Do you have a source on that? Because that's almost exactly what happened for much of the native populations.
Source: How smallpox devastated the Aztecs – and helped Spain conquer an American civilization 500 years ago
40% within one year. Not overall. It then went on to note that in many of the native populations, 90% of them died from the many diseases introduced by the conquistadors.That article quoted 40%.
40% within one year. Not overall. It then went on to note that in many of the native populations, 90% of them died from the many diseases introduced by the conquistadors.
Q: Who exactly is suggesting any of this? Or is this just more nonsensical hyperventilating because someone has pointed out some obvious distasteful elements of a decades-old product that virtually no one even plays anymore?So what’s next?
Intent legal or criminal charges?
Ask for atonement by Wotc?
Ask to remove access to the setting and burn any remaining copies?
Start again to the next offensive setting?
Yes, exactly, by the time Cortes arrived he essentially landed in a post-apocalyptic setting. Diseases arrived well before he did.They did but that process took a while that's all I'm saying over several years/decades.
The sources are biased and a few hundred conquistadors fighting tens of thousands is exaggerated.
Small pox and flipping loyalties were bigger reasons IMHO. More died post conquest to the extent Tlaxcala was a lot smaller a few decades post conquest.