D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Krachek]

I just hope that creators will continue to wisely use culture and historical features despite possible critics.
Otherwise we will shift into culture-less, historic-less and offense-less world that won’t generate any feelings.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

the Spanish empire wasn't the "evil empire" if we compare with the actions by the rest

(I know you can't respond, but this is still relevant to the discussion as a whole.)
Counterpoint: All empires are evil. It's inherent in being an empire. I am very willing to call the actions of the English Empire evil, and those of the French Empire, and the Spanish Empire, and the Roman Empire, and the actions of the American Empire, and the "empire" of Alexander the Great, and so on and so on.

So, no, "whatabout X empire in comparison" is not a valid response. All of them did evil things.

 

[Yaarel]

(I know you can't respond, but this is still relevant to the discussion as a whole.)
Counterpoint: All empires are evil. It's inherent in being an empire. I am very willing to call the actions of the English Empire evil, and those of the French Empire, and the Spanish Empire, and the Roman Empire, and the actions of the American Empire, and the "empire" of Alexander the Great.

So, no, "whatabout X empire in comparison" is not a valid response. All of them did evil things.

An other term for "empire" is, "predatory economy".

Despite being ubiquitous in human history, the predation seems obviously unethical.

 

[Malmuria]

We are still living with the effects of European and American imperialism. Many countries around the world gained their independence within living memory. The appropriation of land, extraction of resources, and destruction of the environment still profoundly effect peoples across the world in uneven and unequal ways...and all of this violence is still ongoing. Finally, and particularly important for our purposes here, the forms of representation and narratives produced in those recent times still inform the worldview, implicitly or explicitly, of contemporary people in the global north. So the narratives that come under scrutiny in fantasy are those that pertain to this very recent history.

 

[Faolyn]

I feel like one purpose in examining works in the past is to learn how to do better. TSR should have done better. They should have recognized the racism and just mean quality of this work. And they didn't.

I'm going to guess that TSR decided that it was "clearly" supposed to be a joke and felt that nobody would be really offended because it was so clearly a joke. And didn't realize that "I was only joking" doesn't actually excuse anything.

 

[bedir than]

I'm going to guess that TSR decided that it was "clearly" supposed to be a joke and felt that nobody would be really offended because it was so clearly a joke. And didn't realize that "I was only joking" doesn't actually excuse anything.

For all the problems that OA and al-Qadim had, at least they, for the most part, tried to honor the societies they emulated. That's always better than insults, even if intended to be humor

 

[Mirtek]

As for the Conquistadors
We could ask the people of Tenochtitlan how good the Spanish were, but they're nearly entirely and completely dead after their city was razed

But they razed it not just with their couple of hundred troops that were, even with their steel and guns, vastly outmatched by the aztec army. They fell because they've been an oppressive empire of their own and the subjugated tribes rose as willing auxiliaries to the spainiards to bring down the hated oppressors (little did they expect to trade them for an even worse oppressor)

 

[Zardnaar]

Okay, I see what you're getting at Voadam. And I see the relevance.

I just don't want to make scattershot accusations where it's not certain. I try to focus on what is certain. And text is often more straightforward than imagery.



Ruin Explorer, I generally agree with how you characterize my approach and research limitations.

I can see that the first image Voadam shared could be interpreted as a parody of a Black woman. The modern-style spandex top contributes to that perception. Yet it's not as straightforward as the textual elements. If this illustration was for a "Black Orcs" section of the book, then it would be certain. I'm definitely willing to call TSR/WotC/Hasbro to the carpet; but analyzing stereotypical motifs within imagery is beyond my expertise, unless it's certainly obvious. Still, Voadam, you make a valid point.

As for the image of breakdancing and the boombox. As others have expressed, my initial impression is that it is a primarily a parody of punk culture (the mohawk and piercings), of boombox culture, and of breakdancing culture. I could see that the fact that breakdancing arose in an African American context could be problematic. I'm not sure of the nuances here though. If any of the humanoids were depicted with Black/African physiognomy (e.g. kinky hair or black skin), it would be more obviously problematic.

Yes, there's a parody of the Mesoamerican Ballgame. I acknowledge that the goofy depiction of the Mesoamerican Ballgame is an appropriation of Nahuatl / Indigenous Mexica culture. I wonder what parameters a professional Nahuatl cultural consultant would suggest in regard to fantasy depictions of the Mesoamerican Ballgame.

I've started to look more closely at the Oenkmar chapter. Yet another reason for my "skipping" over that chapter is that I have not seen a racial slur associated with the Oenkmarians, in the way that the term "red orcs" and "yellow orcs" are close to real-world racial slurs. My goal in the OP was not to document every real-world cultural motif which is found in GAZ10 (or Mystara as a whole!). I went into extra detail with "Red Orcland" and "Yellow Orkia" simply to nail down the fact that the racial terms "red" and "yellow" are definitely referring to "Indigenous American" and "East Asian" parodies.

Yet I'll state again that my research is not inherently opposed to fantasy adaptations of Mesoamerican, Indigenous North American, or East Asian cultural elements. My research is opposed to racial slurs of any sort, and to disrespectful adaptations of real world cultures, especially marginalized / indigenous cultures.

Just remembered something. Some Maori here don't believe in the commercialization of their culture full stop.

Basically they can gift you things eg craftwork such as a carved pounamu necklace. But your not supposed to sell it.

But they razed it not just with their couple of hundred troops that were, even with their steel and guns, vastly outmatched by the aztec army. They fell because they've been an oppressive empire of their own and the subjugated tribes rose as willing auxiliaries to the spainiards to bring down the hated oppressors (little did they expect to trade them for an even worse oppressor)

Tlaxcala got treated reasonably well in the Spanish imperial system.

There's new evidence coming out of Peru where the Spanish over exaggerated their contributions and the indigenous people like did most of the fighting (they've found the bodies with wounds postdating Spanish arrival inflicted with indigenous weapons).

Aztecs were to brutal similar to Assyria, Inca Empire was also unstable. Ithadn't been around long enough to stabilize their conquests so it wasn't to hard to find help.

 

[BookTenTiger]

But they razed it not just with their couple of hundred troops that were, even with their steel and guns, vastly outmatched by the aztec army. They fell because they've been an oppressive empire of their own and the subjugated tribes rose as willing auxiliaries to the spainiards to bring down the hated oppressors (little did they expect to trade them for an even worse oppressor)

Also nine tenths of the population has already died from diseases like swine flu (which spread from pigs released into Florida all the way across the country), so all the power structures were a mess. Folks who wanted more power took advantage of the Spanish invasion to take down those in charge.

 

[bedir than]

But they razed it not just with their couple of hundred troops that were, even with their steel and guns, vastly outmatched by the aztec army. They fell because they've been an oppressive empire of their own and the subjugated tribes rose as willing auxiliaries to the spainiards to bring down the hated oppressors (little did they expect to trade them for an even worse oppressor)

Yes, then the Spanish killed them too.

This isn't the proof of the goodness of Conquistadors

 

[Zardnaar]

Also nine tenths of the population has already died from diseases like swine flu (which spread from pigs released into Florida all the way across the country), so all the power structures were a mess. Folks who wanted more power took advantage of the Spanish invasion to take down those in charge.

The 90% is a bit misqouted.

Varied by region and mist died after the Spanish conquest.

Think 90% was more applicable to North America.

It's not like the Spanish turned up, 90% conveniently died and they ate what was left.

It did throw the social structure of the Incas into chaos though.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes, then the Spanish killed them too.

This isn't the proof of the goodness of Conquistadors

Tlaxcala iirc got better treatment than the rest. Which is why they aided the Spanish since they were used as human sacrifices

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

It's not like the Spanish turned up, 90% conveniently died and they ate what was left.

Do you have a source on that? Because that's almost exactly what happened for much of the native populations.

Source: How smallpox devastated the Aztecs – and helped Spain conquer an American civilization 500 years ago

 

[BookTenTiger]

The 90% is a bit misqouted.

Varied by region and mist died after the Spanish conquest.

Think 90% was more applicable to North America.

It's not like the Spanish turned up, 90% conveniently died and they ate what was left.

It did throw the social structure of the Incas into chaos though.

I got my information from the book 1491. What is your source for the exaggeration?

 

[Zardnaar]

Do you have a source on that? Because that's almost exactly what happened for much of the native populations.

Source: How smallpox devastated the Aztecs – and helped Spain conquer an American civilization 500 years ago

That article quoted 40%.

The diseases were really bad during the battle of the city.

Cf with the Incas who were already fight a smallpox induced civil war.

Not claiming the disease had no effect. The death toll was horrific post conquest that's when most died.
Even if the Spanish stayed away after contact the diseases would have arrived anyway with similar effect. Had they waited 50 years or more I'm guessing Mexico and Peru would have resembled the collapse in NA more.

Disease definitely had an impact but not 90% at time of conquest.

And in the Incas case the arrival of disease predated the Spanish bit different with Aztecs.

If you're gonna run an empire the Inca example is a better way if doing it than Aztec which in some ways resembles Assyria. Aztec empire was already unstable due to their regime, Inca unstable due to disease but it also probably expanded to quickly relative to when the Spanish turned up.

 

[Krachek]

DnD settings are full of reference to historical empire and kingdom. Do they need to be accurate? do they need to make education on true history? DnD settings are there for entertainment. And entertainment products are solely evaluated on cultural and social belief at the time they are produced.

So the Gaz10 setting was printable 30 years ago, and today it is racism and bad taste mockery.

So what’s next?
Intent legal or criminal charges?
Ask for atonement by Wotc?
Ask to remove access to the setting and burn any remaining copies?
Start again to the next offensive setting?

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

That article quoted 40%.

40% within one year. Not overall. It then went on to note that in many of the native populations, 90% of them died from the many diseases introduced by the conquistadors.

 

[Zardnaar]

40% within one year. Not overall. It then went on to note that in many of the native populations, 90% of them died from the many diseases introduced by the conquistadors.

They did but that process took a while that's all I'm saying over several years/decades.

The sources are biased and a few hundred conquistadors fighting tens of thousands is exaggerated.

Small pox and flipping loyalties were bigger reasons IMHO. More died post conquest to the extent Tlaxcala was a lot smaller a few decades post conquest.

 

[J.Quondam]

So what’s next?
Intent legal or criminal charges?
Ask for atonement by Wotc?
Ask to remove access to the setting and burn any remaining copies?
Start again to the next offensive setting?

Q: Who exactly is suggesting any of this? Or is this just more nonsensical hyperventilating because someone has pointed out some obvious distasteful elements of a decades-old product that virtually no one even plays anymore?

A: No one is suggesting burning or censoring anything. So stop exaggerating how awful it is that some people find it instructive to examine old publications through a critical lens. Doing so in no way hurts the hobby, and it in no way hurts even the thinnest-skinned whiners in the hobby.

 

[BookTenTiger]

They did but that process took a while that's all I'm saying over several years/decades.

The sources are biased and a few hundred conquistadors fighting tens of thousands is exaggerated.

Small pox and flipping loyalties were bigger reasons IMHO. More died post conquest to the extent Tlaxcala was a lot smaller a few decades post conquest.

Yes, exactly, by the time Cortes arrived he essentially landed in a post-apocalyptic setting. Diseases arrived well before he did.

I don't understand what your argument here is.