D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D
- Thread starter Dungeonosophy
- Start date
Note it and move on. It already has a dislaimer. In effect it proves the disclaimer.
"We (Wizards) recognize that some of the legacy content available on this website does not reflect the values of the Dungeons & Dragons franchise today. Some older content may reflect ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice that were commonplace in American society at that time. These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed..."
Some. Yes. This one is definitely one of that some
Maybe the next step is to make sure humanoid creatures aren't described using the same rhetoric and visual language as they have in the history of the game. Maybe those of us who have been playing since the late 80s or earlier can acknowledge that just because orcs, for example, were described in that way when we played the game as children, doesn't mean it's right to keep similar representation in the game now. And as wotc makes changes, albeit small, to address these concerns remove stereotyping, we can be supportive of the change as good for the hobby, so that in 30 years people don't have to look back and say "well it was 2020, people then didn't know any better."
Zardnaar
Legend
Pizarro to some extent not Cortez. Incas were far from post apocalyptic as well when Spanish arrived.
The collapse of the NA civilizations one could argue was post apocalyptic by the time their conquest happened or Mexico and Peru post conquest.
And both empires were unstable pre contact.
Indeed I think it’s a lot of hyper publicity for an old crappy product! I just follow trough with hyper solution.
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing
The standard disclaimer that they have put on these older products, combined with their demonstrated efforts to do better going forward, is a good start. "What's next," you ask? The next step should be to ask marginalized communities if these steps are good enough, and if not, ask them how they could do better.
This is true for all content creators...not just game developers, and not just Wizards of the Coast.
Marginalized communities are not mysterious, esoteric social constructs that cannot be known or understood; they are real groups of real people, complete with real jobs, phones, and internet connections. Reach out, they will respond.
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J.Quondam
CR 1/8
A couple threads in RPG forums peopled almost entirely by a few dozen D&D supernerds is not "hyper publicity."
Not even remotely.
It's just a discussion.
Zardnaar
Legend
Yep we're in a bubble here. I figured this out in around 2002/3 with 3E.
Indeed the answers I seek are already there.
Wotc made great efforts and personally I like the way they are handling the subject.
DnD can be an excellent way to learn and get interest of historical events, I just hope it will continue.
I know, but I just discover this product with a kind of surprise.
1998! and when I look at the picture, I thought it was like 1950! even before the creation of DnD. Like and old magazine you find out in a box out of the basement of an old house.
So just stating in the thread title « in DnD » I thought we will be discussing about a big thing!
No it is an old marginal TSR product.
So yes I consider this a publicity to an old crappy product from the past, that was considered to be written with humorous style at the time, but failed the 2021 standard.
MGibster
Legend
I mean, why? We're talking about an almost 35 year old product and WotC isn't going to publish something similar any time soon.
CleverNickName
Limit Break Dancing
You've answered your own question here. The "why" is so that they don't publish similar products (and run into this issue again) in the future. You know, keep improving their products and growing their fan base. That sort of thing.
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Dungeonosophy
Legend
Yes, GAZ10 is one of those "somes." I've always thought though, that the disclaimer is rather lame corporate-speak. It's only slightly better than nothing. It basically means:
"We're not going to bother looking at the specifics of what's problematic in any of these legacy publications. And we're not going to admit or apologize for any specific thing. It's enough of a symbolic gesture that we put a nicely-worded generic disclaimer on everything pre-5E. We say that's enough. These depictions are wrong, but we're going to continue to rake in $10 for each PDF sale! In the end, it's the bottom line that we care about."
Do I have a specific suggestion for how WotC/Hasbro could make amends?
1) Well, ideally each legacy product which has major "ethnic, racial, or gender prejudice" would be looked at by a team of professional cultural consultants.
2) And their findings would be published in a DRAGON+ article. Where WotC would apologize for specific portrayals.
3) It would be such a healing gesture to bring in the original authors (in this case, Bruce Heard), and editors and artists, and let them apologize on DRAGON+, and say some really beautiful, conciliatory words which are vetted by the cultural amends team. Like R.A. Salvatore's recent words on problematic aspects of the drow, which I think was a beautiful gesture.
4) The DRAGON+ article would then be forever linked to the DriveThruRPG product page. It would be a truly healing gesture.
Like WotC says: "Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible."
Then teach us WotC! Teach us and explain exactly where you (including TSR) failed to practice the principle that "diversity is strength" in the past. And in the present: because GAZ10 and other problematic products are still "D&D products." How are you going to make GAZ10 "as welcoming and inclusive as possible"? "As possible" is a tall order.
WotC's disclaimer ends with the statement:
"This part of our work will never end."
Okay, get crackin'! You said this part of your work will never end. So put together a standing team of cultural consultants, and start the amends process. This would be an ongoing DRAGON+ feature. It'll take years, and that's okay. Because this work will never end!
5) Besides educating folks through the amendatory DRAGON+ articles, I'd also suggest that a large portion of proceeds of problematic legacy PDFs be perpetually donated to an appropriate charity. In the case of GAZ10, I'd personally suggest the Lakota Waldorf School...they could use the money. Yet I'm sure there are plenty of worthy Indigenous American and East Asian charities which WotC could identify, even in the Renton-Seattle area. However, the more specific the better. For example, GAZ10 contains distasteful content specifically related to the Vodun (Voodoo), Lakota (Teton Sioux), Nakota (Assiniboine/Stoney), Kanienʼkehá꞉ka (Mohawk), Apsáalooke (Crow), Mongolian, Tibetan, Chinese, and Bhutanese cultures, and perhaps others. It would not be hard for WotC's cultural amends team to do some web research and find a charity related to each of those cultures. And sort of divvy up the PDF "amends royalties" based on approximately how many distasteful jabs each culture received. (For example, there are only three sentences which buffoonishly refer to Vodun spirituality, but many paragraphs which refer to "Red Orcs.")
I realize that admitting anything would be a courageous opening of a can of worms. Corporations are not always known for their courage. And I realize that it costs money to have cultural consultants comb through legacy books. But sometimes ya gotta put your money where your mouth is.
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Zardnaar
Legend
Not gonna happen.
1. Costs to much money vs what they make on Legacy products.
2. Goes against the play any edition you want thing they were pushing not to long ago.
No one really expects legacy products to match modern standards and they're not gonna go back and clean up hundreds of products.
It would be cheaper to not sell those legacy products but they're all available online anyway.
Dungeonosophy
Legend
It's definitely not going to happen if no one voices it. I am voicing it.
Zardnaar
Legend
Logistics means it won't happen.
At best you might get the product pulled.
Probably not worth the PR nightmare.
Dungeonosophy
Legend
What, are you a prophet? You're speaking pretty authoritatively for someone who's not a representative of Wizards of the Coast.
Or are you really just saying that you personally wish for no amends to be made?
Levistus's_Leviathan
5e Freelancer
And to prove to people that deny that D&D had racist roots that it indeed did. I can't even count the amount of times that I've been told "Orcs are not stand-ins for real life BIPOC", when this type of research proves that completely wrong. They were. It sucks, but they were.
BookTenTiger
He / Him
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