D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Zardnaar]

As a Jewish man who has watched all of The Next Generation and DS9 multiple times, I never once saw or see even now any anti-semitism in Ferengi. It takes more than, "Well, this act is kinda like this one that people say about the Jews in an anti-semitic manner." Correlation does not equal causation. Just because you can show something kinda matches up, doesn't make the thing you are matching it to the cause.

For me to make the association you say is there, I would need an explicit reference tying Ferengi to Jews. This is why the modern orc argument fails for me, but this Gazetteer 10 is something I find appalling. The OP does make the explicit connections tying it to racism.

I never made the connection either.

For me I think how explicit a deluctiin is with negative stereotypes.

A lot of fantasy cultures or sci Fi cultures are reflective if human traits. So if you look hard enough you could apply almost anything depicted to any one irl.

Eg if a culture is Militarist you could lump that on multiple cultures or civilizations.

But if that culture gas an emperor, senate and legions it's a bit more explicit as to what they're basing it off.

In Orcs of That the depiction is a lot more explicit. For me the latter is fine former no.

And long extinct cultures with no direct cultural connection to modern age is reasonably safe although I still would do it in a mocking way.

UK for example is a melting pot post Rome modern Egypt has virtually no connection beyond geography to ancient Egypt.

Modern Greece has a lot stronger connection to ancient Greece eg linguistics.

So it depends on how explicit something is and the context of what you're consuming (documentary vs movie vs reality tv etc).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I bought the shrinkwrapped book based on the premise of the cover and the back info blurb thinking a humanoid area gazetteer would be great. I was not expecting the Looney Tunes humor cultural portrayals.

Orcs of Thar. 1988.

WG7 Castle Greyhawk. 1988.


Hmmmm......

 

[Justice and Rule]

Orcs of Thar. 1988.

WG7 Castle Greyhawk. 1988.


Hmmmm......

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So what I gather from this is that you really, really, really want to talk about Britain, rather than what happened to the Native Americans.

Think about that for a while, please.

That's a spectacularly holier than thou attitude you have there.

I didn't say anything about Native Americans because I don't feel qualified to do so. I was just reading what other far more knowledgeable people had to say on the subject. British history is the only thing I felt qualified to comment on.

 

[el-remmen]

As a Jewish man who has watched all of The Next Generation and DS9 multiple times, I never once saw or see even now any anti-semitism in Ferengi. It takes more than, "Well, this act is kinda like this one that people say about the Jews in an anti-semitic manner." Correlation does not equal causation. Just because you can show something kinda matches up, doesn't make the thing you are matching it to the cause.

For me to make the association you say is there, I would need an explicit reference tying Ferengi to Jews. This is why the modern orc argument fails for me, but this Gazetteer 10 is something I find appalling. The OP does make the explicit connections tying it to racism.

Far be it from me to argue with you about your own experience watching those shows. Nevertheless, I will say that I don't think intention matters much to the impact. Note I didn't argue that the writers, actors, or showrunners of Star Trek are anti-semites. I said Ferengi trade on various anti-Semetic tropes that I think are gross. No one needs to be an explicit racist for that to happen.

I will say that as a non-Jew who realized fairly early how common casual anti-Semitism is among gentiles, I am sensitive those portrayals because I think they reflect something a lot deeper, insidious and ongoing.

 

[Faolyn]

As a Jewish man who has watched all of The Next Generation and DS9 multiple times, I never once saw or see even now any anti-semitism in Ferengi. It takes more than, "Well, this act is kinda like this one that people say about the Jews in an anti-semitic manner." Correlation does not equal causation. Just because you can show something kinda matches up, doesn't make the thing you are matching it to the cause.

For me to make the association you say is there, I would need an explicit reference tying Ferengi to Jews. This is why the modern orc argument fails for me, but this Gazetteer 10 is something I find appalling. The OP does make the explicit connections tying it to racism.

I think a major factor here is that every actor who played a major reoccurring ferengi character in DS9 (with the possible exception of Jeffery Combs, who played Liquidator Blunt) is/was at least culturally Jewish. So I'm sure that helped to make some viewers see the ferengi as Jewish stereotypes. I'm completely sure that these actors weren't hired for these roles as ferengi because they're Jewish, though.

 

[Maxperson]

Far be it from me to argue with you about your own experience watching those shows. Nevertheless, I will say that I don't think intention matters much to the impact. Note I didn't argue that the writers, actors, or showrunners of Star Trek are anti-semites. I said Ferengi trade on various anti-Semetic tropes that I think are gross. No one needs to be an explicit racist for that to happen.

I will say that as a non-Jew who realized fairly early how common casual anti-Semitism is among gentiles, I am sensitive those portrayals because I think they reflect something a lot deeper, insidious and ongoing.

Humans have been gross for thousands of years. I sincerely doubt that there's a gross thing that can be depicted in any medium that can't be connected in the way you are trying to connect Ferengi to anti-semitism. Lots and lots of bad things have been done by groups in power to minority groups. It takes more than being able to draw a correlation to create a link to anti-semitism or some other racism.

 

[Maxperson]

I think a major factor here is that every actor who played a major reoccurring ferengi character in DS9 (with the possible exception of Jeffery Combs, who played Liquidator Blunt) is/was at least culturally Jewish. So I'm sure that helped to make some viewers see the ferengi as Jewish stereotypes. I'm completely sure that these actors weren't hired for these roles as ferengi because they're Jewish, though.

As am I. There are a lot of Jews in Hollywood, including multiple members of my family.

 

[Krachek]

I got a pdf of Orcs of Thar at the second attempt!
I didn’t laugh but didn’t feel ashamed.
I thank myself to get it for free, since I don’t think it worth 10$.
It is crunchy, but poorly illustrated, and can be useful to conduct a campaign in a typical orchis DnD world.
Case closed for me.

 

[Mordhau]

I wonder what the actual sales are like for these old products?

Probably not much.