D&D 5E Toward a new D&D aesthetics

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I mean this with all friendly respect: You really need to stop accusing people of this. You've felt others are being rude in their method of arguing, but you keep making things personal. I see how it might feel that way to you, but try being a little more charitable. It's friendlier.

I'm not trying to make things personal. But if someone says something which seems insincere, they'll be the first to know. But I understand what you're saying. There's been a weird and unpleasant vibe flowing through this thread that is bringing up my desire to defend those who are being unjustly treated. It's starting to make me hot under the collar, which is what you're talking about I think. I've done enough babbling and have probably made my point. I'll step away. Enjoy the rest of the thread all y'all!

 

[Yaarel]

I did get the impression that @beancounter was being hauled up onto the debate stage in a discussion about "art" when reading this thread.

His is the second post in the thread. That is a location that most thread readers are likely to see and respond to. And that particular post insists on a problematic and sweeping generalization.

How can the responses have gone differently?

Indeed the initial responses were polite with reasonable objections and requests for clarification.

Things became uglier because of personal insults at the objecters and questioners.

 

[beancounter]

the next post insulted other forumers as if being "pathetic", and his last post seems to clearly indicate that he thinks he is right, meanwhile insulting everyone in the forum.

It seems there could be easier posters to defend.

Here's the exact quote.

"I've already admitted I was wrong, and the pile on continues. Pathetic."

First, "pathetic" referred to the continuation of the pile on after I admitted I was wrong. It wasn't a back handed way of saying I was right.

Second, how do you read "everyone" in that statement? Obviously, I was referring to those engaging in the pile on, not everyone.

 

[beancounter]

His is the second post in the thread. That is a location that most thread readers are likely to see and respond to. And that particular post insists on a problematic and sweeping generalization.

How can the responses have gone differently?

Indeed the initial responses were polite with reasonable objections and requests for clarification.

Things became uglier because of personal insults at the objecters and questioners.

Please show me where I made personal attack.

 

[Yaarel]

Here's the exact quote.

"I've already admitted I was wrong, and the pile on continues. Pathetic."

First, "pathetic" referred to the continuation of the pile on after I admitted I was wrong. It wasn't a back handed way of saying I was right.

Second, how do you read "everyone" in that statement? Obviously, I was referring to those engaging in the pile on, not everyone.

I said your last post came across as judgmental and insulting "everyone in the forum".

For example.

"This forum has become toxic."

"Am I going to invoke the wrath of ... sycophants".

"And the way some people suck up and cow tow ... is rather pathetic."



I happen to think your sweeping generalizations in your initial post and repeated later are incorrect.

But even if there is a topic that one believes is correct about, but is in the minority, there are more constructive ways to advocate ones view.

And it takes time to persuade a majority.

Shortcuts dont help, because ultimately reacting in anger and frustration creates more new problems than the old problems that were solved. Even the rare times when anger is helpful and is an intentional protest, one must prepare for the consequences and be at peace with that, so the protest isnt even real anger.

 

[Yaarel]

I admitted I was wrong.

I take your word for it now, but it wasnt clear then.

Part of the confusion is, other forumers took up your cause. You voiced appreciation for their support but I dont recall you clarifying your new position.

 

[Malmuria]

It was obvious. Please. You are being intentionally obtuse. The poster meant that the art seemed cutesy/childish to them. Which you already know (or should!), but I am stating for clarity. Any responses to that initial post should have been addressing that and not adding baggage to the original statement.

I think the examples that were being requested were not just from Disney, but from dnd material, to show a trend. In the original poll, I selected "Change in aesthetics? Where? What?" as did 21 other people. This should be an indication of sincerity: I honestly don't see a trend in the art style of 5e. There was also the claim that there was a singular "classic" dnd art style, which people disputed by providing examples. When other people are finding images from older editions or from disney to discuss and in some cases dispute these terms, one-sentence responses without providing evidence will come across as hostile:

What part of "trending toward" don't you understand?

Yes, but it's become more prevalent.

That said, @beancounter I'm sorry you felt dogpiled or unwelcome! Managing tone over the internet is famously difficult.

 

[Yaarel]

"Dogpiles" happen. Heh, I have been the victim of them on occasion, sometimes with demonstrable cyberbullying. Not recently though.

There are certain issues where I have been in the minority but I know I am right. (cough D&D polytheism sucks cough). I love this D&D community and realize it takes time for people to realize the many reasons why WotC needs to walk back and soften the problematic. Fortunately, there is more recent awareness, about the need for more sensitivity toward Non-Anglo-speaking D&D players, and this helps my issue as well.

 

[Fifth Element]

It was obvious.

It was not, thus the request for clarification.

 

[Kurotowa]

It was not, thus the request for clarification.

Forum posters who think their every word is transparently obvious in meaning is like DMs who think their puzzles and mysteries are easily solvable from the clues presented. Your players aren't spending two hours being lost and confused because they're stupid. It's because your clues only make sense in context. And while as the creator you have the entire context filled out inside your head, no one else does.

Thus, I implore everyone to not be that annoying DM and remember that your perspective is unique to you. If you want your words to clearly carry their meaning you need to provide sufficient context, and if someone says you've lost them and they need clarification then do so. It's not a slight on you or them. It's the inherent limitations of communicating via words instead of telepathy.