D&D 5E [+] Explain RPG theory without using jargon

[Snarf Zagyg]

The page count over/under for this thread just increased by at least 50.

Given the large number of words I have already spilled on the subject, I'll just post a few helpful links. Very short ones.

@Charlaquin

Free Kriegsspiel: Worlds, Not Rules, Etc.

What's Free Kriegsspiel? That's a silly name. Okay, free kriegsspiel (FK) is shorthand for "ancient school" RPG theory. That is, how were r...

d66kobolds.blogspot.com

How I Run and Play an Ultralight Game

I take it for granted that I know how I run and have been running my games for a few years now according to the "free kriegsspiel/FKR" (henc...

d66kobolds.blogspot.com

...and some of the games-

Top physical games tagged fkr

Find physical games tagged fkr like 24XX, here, there, be monsters!, Messerspiel, Space Aces: TOS (The Original Sheets), LOST EONS Core Books on itch.io, the indie game hosting marketplace

itch.io

 

[Charlaquin]

@Charlaquin

I would actually look at Freebooters on the Frontier. It's a B/X inspired hack designed to work with B/X modules and hexcrawls. It might be exactly what you're looking for. It has a very strong focus on exploration and old school feeling play. It's designed by Jason Lutes who made the excellent Perilous Wilds supplement for Dungeon World.

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

I gave the preview on DrivethruRPG a glance, wasn’t sure if it was enough of what I was looking for to pick the full PDF up, but at your recommendation I’ll do so.

 

[Ovinomancer]

If I tell a student that they’ve written “an incoherent essay,” that’s definitely a criticism. Not necessarily in the sense that its complete babble (“incoherent with grief”), but that it is disjointed disorganized, nonsensical. If I mean to say that it makes multiple interesting arguments, all of which make sense, I would not say it it is “incoherent.”

Notably, design, as in “game design,” has quite a different meaning:

to create, fashion, execute, or construct according to plan : DEVISE, CONTRIVEdesign a system for tracking inventory
2a: to conceive and plan out in the mind. he designed the perfect crime
b: to have as a purpose : INTEND. she designed to excel in her studies
c: to devise for a specific function or enda book designed primarily as a college textbooka suitcase designed to hold a laptop computer

Design implies order, organization, and intention. If I designed a game, and the reviewers said it was “incoherent,” that would read quite clearly as a criticsm.

That’s totally fine by the way; as a criticism of WOD-style design I see where Edwards is coming from. But to make a criticism, and then say that it is not a criticism but a neutral way of describing all rpgs, strikes me as disingenuous (and pointless).

And yet, you can intentionally design for incoherence. @Manbearcat has a stellar post on how Torchbearer leans into incoherence in a open way. So... yeah, still seems to be you bringing the negative.

 

[niklinna]

That fits! It also shines light on the trouble you & I had sussing out your preferences. Also, even though I repeat quite frequently that G/N/S aren't buckets a whole person has to be in, I failed to recognize that you like both G and S elements in a particular relationship.

This has me thinking of trying to describe G/N/S, rather than as buckets, as ingredients or primary colors. You can combine them as in a recipe to make all kinds of tasty dishes or other colors. You can chop the ingredients roughly or finely. You can make Roy Lichetenstein style paintings or do fine blending of colors.You can stuff one ingredient inside the other! Peanut butter cups, any pie, deviled eggs, ravioli, calzone, haggis....

But underneath it all are the ingredients or primary colors.

Edited to add fun foods.

And whaddya know, I actually had this idea a full month ago in the other thread, but as a joke:

Oh, characters can deal with all sorts of personal drama and trauma while the plot rolls merrily along on its predetermined course. "Narrativism" inside of Simulationism inside of Gamism (or perhaps another way around, and maybe with scare quotes on all for fairness), like a big RPG turducken.

 

[Charlaquin]

And yet, you can intentionally design for incoherence. @Manbearcat has a stellar post on how Torchbearer leans into incoherence in a open way. So... yeah, still seems to be you bringing the negative.

That one can lean into incoherence doesn’t erase the description’s negative connotations. Often, art that is intentionally “incoherent” has the express purpose of challenging established notions of “coherence.”

 

[Charlaquin]

So, I read the primer on the Torchbearer Kickstarter. Sounds awesome, though I suppose that is the job of a primer. The one thing that gives me pause is the idea that it seems like on a fail the GM decides whether to let it succeed at the cost of a condition or impose a twist. Now, maybe there are clear principles laid out for when to do which, but without knowing what those principles are (if they do exist), that feels arbitrary in a way I wouldn’t really be bothered by as a player, but would feel uncomfortable deciding on as a GM. Maybe I’m stuck in D&D GM-as-referee mindset, but it feels too partial to me.

 

[Aldarc]

So, I read the primer on the Torchbearer Kickstarter. Sounds awesome, though I suppose that is the job of a primer. The one thing that gives me pause is the idea that it seems like on a fail the GM decides whether to let it succeed at the cost of a condition or impose a twist. Now, maybe there are clear principles laid out for when to do which, but without knowing what those principles are (if they do exist), that feels arbitrary in a way I wouldn’t really be bothered by as a player, but would feel uncomfortable deciding on as a GM. Maybe I’m stuck in D&D GM-as-referee mindset, but it feels too partial to me.

...except the yellow brick road is the Fiction.

 

[kenada]

Apparently Torchbearer has a Kickstarter going for a second edition? Anybody know more about that?

EDIT: Oh, wait, maybe the Kickstarter already happened and the second edition is in the wild?

Torchbearer 2nd edition is what we’re playing. The PDFs and books are available from the Burning Wheel website. Unfortunately, the organization kind of sucks. You really need all three of the Dungeoneer’s Handbook, Scholar’s Guide, and Lore Master’s Manual. Definitely the first two, but we’d had a few things come up that used the Lore Master’s Manual as well.

I would not describe Torchbearer as a complex system. The various frameworks are pretty basic, and it builds off of those. However, the details can very depending on the context. For example, which skills you use in a conflict depends on the type of conflict as do the weapons and defenses you can use. However, the mechanics of using those things are all the same. I’m enjoying our campaign, but I probably wouldn’t go out of my way to play TB again after it wraps.

 

[Charlaquin]

...except the yellow brick road is the Fiction.

The adage is cute, but it doesn’t really mean much…

 

[niklinna]

So, I read the primer on the Torchbearer Kickstarter. Sounds awesome, though I suppose that is the job of a primer. The one thing that gives me pause is the idea that it seems like on a fail the GM decides whether to let it succeed at the cost of a condition or impose a twist. Now, maybe there are clear principles laid out for when to do which, but without knowing what those principles are (if they do exist), that feels arbitrary in a way I wouldn’t really be bothered by as a player, but would feel uncomfortable deciding on as a GM. Maybe I’m stuck in D&D GM-as-referee mindset, but it feels too partial to me.

There are principles. @Manbearcat can get into details, but my understanding is the GM is better off alternating them than having one or the other pile up. Generally, when you "fail" a test, you get what you wanted anyway, plus the condition, or you don't get what you wanted and a twist happens. So that's a factor for the GM in deciding.

There's a fixed list of conditions, each with their own specific mechanical effects. If you already have the condition the GM picked, you usually get the next condition on the list (there are exceptions). The last condition on the list, of course, is "Dead".

Twists are much more open-ended, being complications or new threats that crop up. This can involve full loss of your objective, be a diversion from it, or another damn thing that comes up in your pursuit of it.

Conditions and twists are also both pacing mechanisms (among several others in Torchbearer), so the GM can choose twist or condition (and which condition) based on that.