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D&D General Rethinking alignment yet again

So that everyone in a game has the same consistent reference point for what is going to be considered good, evil, lawful and chaotic, Just for the purposes of in the game in that campaign.
Yes, but why we need to know this? This is not generally a thing in fiction. There is no list of what's considered good and evil in Star Trek you need to memorise in order to enjoy Star Trek. Hell, there isn't even such clear categories for very morally black and white settings such as Middle-Earth.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
And to make the social relationship at the table super-weird when the DM reveals they think drinking and eating junkfood is inherently evil right as the rogue is cracking open a beer and the fighter pays for the pizza.

So, I can't help when I read comments like that reading them as if they are super bitter and angry, and I think it would greatly help me understand your position and sympathize with your feelings if I just understood why. I realize this is a personal question and of course, no judgment if you don't want to answer, but some personal anecdotes would help here. Like did you really have a aecetic, teetotalling, vegan health-nut GM that said your Paladin had fallen because he drunk a beer or ate a roast chicken without explaining to you ahead of time that in his world all good character's shared his real world ascetic and pacifist principles? Or is that situation purely theoretical and you are just trying to poison the conversation?
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Yes, but why we need to know this? This is not generally a thing in fiction.

No, it very definitely is. It's just that in a typical novel or movie everything isn't laid out explicitly. But in the same way that an RPG that wants to deal with combat needs to organize and systematize combat to simulate a particular fiction, so too does an RPG that wants to address the morality of a work of fiction have to systemize the morality. This isn't even unusual to D&D. If you are going to play a Star Wars game, you'd have to systemize the morality of "Light" and "Dark" characters, and in fact Star Wars RPGs do that. And that's true of Middle-Earth as well. And we could dig into the lore of that setting and figure out the very clear morally black and white things that are true of "Good Guys". For example, in third age Middle-Earth no "Good Guy" partakes in an organized religion is an absolute moral fact that has an in world explanation. All Middle-Earth religions are "Satanic" (Morgothic) in origin and are evil. That's why there are no temples and clergy in Rivendell or Minas Tirith. And if you miss those sort of things, you aren't really simulating the setting.
 


Hand of Evil

Hero
Epic
Yes, but why we need to know this? This is not generally a thing in fiction. There is no list of what's considered good and evil in Star Trek you need to memorise in order to enjoy Star Trek. Hell, there isn't even such clear categories for very morally black and white settings such as Middle-Earth.
Because (in America) we have the Ten Commandments and the Bill of Rights, it was how we were raised and built into our social structure. Our actions are based around those concepts. In fantasy games there is a lot of freedom and lack of laws that impact the characters, you impose your will as a DM or you can have the players know what you are working with.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Yes, but why we need to know this? This is not generally a thing in fiction. There is no list of what's considered good and evil in Star Trek you need to memorise in order to enjoy Star Trek. Hell, there isn't even such clear categories for very morally black and white settings such as Middle-Earth.
The prime directive?
 

Because (in America) we have the Ten Commandments and the Bill of Rights, it was how we were raised and built into our social structure. Our actions are based around those concepts.
Oh boy... :rolleyes:

In fantasy games there is a lot of freedom and lack of laws that impact the characters, you impose your will as a DM or you can have the players know what you are working with.
I don't think it is the GMs job to impose their will on the players and judge the moral choices of their characters.
 

The prime directive?
Is a law in the setting. And the characters certainly have struggled with it and made moral choices to break it. We don't need to know whether the Prime Directive is objectively correct to have that, in fact knowing that would explicitly undermine such moral questioning.
 

Jack Daniel

dice-universe.blogspot.com
What is alignment FOR in D&D?
How does alignment go about fulfilling its purpose as you just defined it?
Do you have rules citations for any of that, or is it all just your own interpretation?

I'll go ahead and pull an excerpt from my own house-rules doc to provide what I hope can serve as an example.

Alignment['s] purpose [is] to segregate player characters into factions or teams which might then complete for treasures and territories within the campaign milieu […] alignments are factions, and not just ephemeral, distant, cosmic factions meant for celestials and deities and eldritch things beyond the ken of mortals. Alignments are factions that player characters belong to, and which form around player character parties that exist in competition with one another within the same campaign milieu—more analogous to sports teams than to moral philosophies or religions.

An example of the proper use of alignment would be a campaign that has two separate groups that meet on different game-nights. One party is Law; the other is Chaos. (Any characters whose players show up inconsistently and might join either party on an adventure are Neutral.) Perhaps from the perspective of the first party, they champion Order and come from a well-organized empire that views barbarians from beyond their borders as agents of Anarchy; while the second party represents those very barbarian tribes, valuing Freedom and seeing the empire as Tyranny. As each party delves their way into a dungeon that exists in the mountain range separating the empire from barbarian lands, many weeks or even months of play may go by before the two teams even become aware of each other; but conflict will inevitably arise, especially once high-level player characters emerge—Lawful lords, patriarchs, and wizards who see the barbarian lands beyond the border as wilderness ripe for settling and colonization, and Chaotic versions of the same who desire to invade the empire in the name of “liberation” (and plunder).

Ultimately, alignments should be worked into the foundation of the milieu, but they should also be allowed to arise naturally through play. If a campaign only ever has one consistent adventuring party, there is no need for alignment—because the only meaningful player character faction is “the party” (as opposed to the DM); most characters (with the exception of priests and knights) can safely remain unaligned. Conversely, in a very popular and long-running campaign with many different adventuring parties, it may become necessary to divide existing alignments even further. Law and Chaos may become riven with internal strife, and parties may over time divide themselves into Lawful Good, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Good, and Chaotic Evil (or some other suitable division).

In general, most 1st level characters should begin the game unaligned, only declaring themselves for an alignment as it becomes relevant to gameplay. Priests and knights are an exception: a priest must declare for an alignment in order to surpass the 5th experience level, and a fighter must likewise be aligned in order to become a knight. Ultimately, however, it must fall to the player to decide when or whether their PC is to align with Law, Chaos, or Neutrality.

Alignment and Multiple Characters: The harsh penalties inflicted on a character for changing alignment [q.v. the DMG 1e] exist for much the same reason that multiple characters belonging to a single player are always absolutely forbidden from sharing treasure, magical items, spells, etc. with each other. It helps to enforce a strict separation between player and character that prevents a player from accruing undue advantages purely because of their controlling multiple characters. If, for example, one has a player who enjoys playing Chaotic PCs and is solidly on “team Chaos” in the campaign, it would not do for this player to create ostensibly Neutral or Lawful PCs who could join “team Law” but then work to subvert the Lawful party as a “mole” or “plant.” Such a character would have to be Chaotic from the start (and therefore at risk of alignment detection in-game). For the character’s in-game alignment to be Law or Neutrality, only to have them “defect” to Chaos at a later date (when this was in fact the player’s true intention all along), must be discouraged by solidly defined mechanical penalties, purely in the interest of fair play.
 

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