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D&D 5E Is 5E Special

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
You probably underestimate 8 year olds’ ability to understand a system, just for a start, but also what benefit do you believe making the system harder to understand actually has?
There is a difference between making it hard to understand and involving things which are harder to understand. The former is obscurantism, which is a thing 5e actually does, albeit not as much as 3e (and certainly not as much as early D&D.) The latter is, unfortunately, a necessary element some of the time if you want to do more impressive things. A very young child that hasn't yet learned multiplication, for example, is going to struggle with D&D, regardless of edition. Choosing to use multiplication doesn't mean you're trying to make it hard to understand. It means you're using something that requires a minimum level of understanding, because that thing is useful.

As I said previously, I agree with you that many people underestimate the intelligence and adaptability of children, treating them like simpletons, which is incredibly disrespectful. However, an 8-year-old child will, generally speaking, only recently have been introduced to the concept of multiplying single-digit numbers, or dividing one two-digit number by a single-digit number. The concept of decimals, likewise, will be something they've relatively recently learned at school. Obviously some children will pick these up swiftly and others more slowly, but the point is, this is asking young people to play a game based on math they've either only recently learned, or genuinely haven't learned yet. That has some risks to it, and means that the system by its very nature, simply by having things like "area of effect" and "half damage" and the like, is going to be more difficult to explain to them than it would be to a child a few years older who will, in general, have achieved comfortable mastery of these topics.

As with debates about "simplicity" vs "complexity," there are quite simply two virtues in play here, which are incommensurate but both valuable. When people call for simplicity, in general what they are asking for is elegance, parsimony, and clarity: choosing the correct point on the spectrum between the deficient vice of triviality and the excessive vice of inscrutability, seeking the game design virtue of accessibility. When people call for complexity, in general they are asking for depth, significance, and variety: choosing the correct point on the spectrum between the deficient vice of vapidity and the excessive vice of perplexity, seeking the game design virtue of subtlety.

An inscrutable thing need not be perplexing, indeed it may be vapid if properly understood, it just happens to be impossible to read (consider some of the allegations made during the "Sokal affair.") Conversely, a perplexing thing need not be inscrutable: you might be fully capable of understanding what each option does, but if you have six thousand options, correctly choosing the best among them will be a Herculean task. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to make a game that involves absolutely no complicated elements while also offering strategic depth. There is a reason Go is famous very specifically for its unusual combination of extremely simple rules and extremely deep strategic play.

Hence, we accept various elements of complication--which, for a child, can quite easily include things like probabilities, multiplication, decimals, and calculating areas or perimeters--in order to unlock more possibilities of strategic depth. This is, in general, a necessary trade-off up to some point. That doesn't mean one is intentionally trying to make the game "hard to explain"; one is instead accepting a certain minimum level of required explanation (or, frequently and often in tandem, a certain minimum level of expected background knowledge) in order to make the game more enjoyable in the doing.

Edit: The ideal, of course, is to create a game that is both subtle and accessible: one "easy to learn, but hard to master," as it were. In the video game design community, this is usually referred to as having a "low skill floor" and a "high skill ceiling." That is: the skill floor is the minimum skill you must show in order to use some particular thing effectively, while the skill ceiling is the maximum performance you can reach no matter how skillful you personally might be. Folks wanting "simplicity" in tabletop gaming are generally asking for options, or even entire game systems, that have a low skill floor, while folks wanting "complexity" in that space are doing the same but wanting a high skill ceiling. Unfortunately, doing both things is hard! So many games either "cheat" (offering some options where both the skill floor and the skill ceiling are low, and others where both are high), or they stick with just one end and call it good. Fighting games like Tekken and MOBAs like League of Legends generally do the former. Strategy games, particularly grand strategy games, generally do the latter.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Mod Note:

Y’all, “edition warring“ isn’t really a thing here anymore, but do it enough times with enough intentional trollery, and I can still ding you for threadcrapping. Let’s dial the anti-“X”Ed jabs back to a minimum, thank you.
 

glass

(he, him)
The 5E action economy is explained quite clearly. It isn't all that different from 3E, no, but that's well and good.
They have a "bonus action" which is not a type of action, because "action" is a whole other thing. No potential for confusion there!

First off, that's literally how wizards work in D&D. It's unavoidable unless you want to go the full 4e route of having every class with the exact same mechanics, and (fairly or not) the community hated that.
Consider the context of my comment. 4e by definition did "go the full 4e route", so 5e as its immediate successor was changing thing from 4e. And it changed casters to make them a lot more "quadratic" than they were in 4e.

Also, is it time for out regularly scheduled reminder that "having every class with the exact same mechanics" is an edition warrior talking point? It is nowhere close to an accurate description of the actual game.

3E' economy was fine, it was figuring out the modifiers and corner case rules after action declaration that I couldn't go back to. Grappling shouldn't be so complex.
3.5's action economy was fine. 3e's was different and much more confusing.

_
glass.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The former is obscurantism, which is a thing 5e actually does, albeit not as much as 3e (and certainly not as much as early D&D.)
No, 5e does not do that. Obscurantism requires intent, as far as I understand the term, to begin with. Beyond that, nothing in 5e is needlessly obscure or complex or obfuscated in a way that makes the needed information inaccessible.
A very young child that hasn't yet learned multiplication, for example, is going to struggle with D&D, regardless of edition.
No, they won’t. I’ve played D&D with a 6 year old, and she had no problem with the game itself.
The ideal, of course, is to create a game that is both subtle and accessible: one "easy to learn, but hard to master," as it were.
5e is that, precisely.
They have a "bonus action" which is not a type of action, because "action" is a whole other thing. No potential for confusion there!
Have you ever actually witnessed any person being confused by it? I haven’t.
 

is it time for out regularly scheduled reminder that "having every class with the exact same mechanics" is an edition warrior talking point? It is nowhere close to an accurate description of the actual game.
I think it is, and I'm saying that as someone who played and ran a ton of 4e and had a blast. I personally like the at-will/encounter/daily setup but yes, it did mean every class had the same basic mechanics. There's a lot good about that, such as the obvious benefits to game balance, but a huge chunk of the community hated it.

5e went back to "fighters are fighters, wizards are wizards" but still managed to keep martials useful and fun at high levels, even compared to wizards, which 1st/2nd/3rd/BECMI did not. IMO.
 
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Eric V

Hero
You probably underestimate 8 year olds’ ability to understand a system, just for a start, but also what benefit do you believe making the system harder to understand actually has?
"Probably" huh? Basing that on...? Kinda arrogant of you, considering you don't know me, yeah?

I have been teaching for over 25 years...I feel I am probably not underestimating. I feel I am making an evaluation based on my experience.
 

glass

(he, him)
No, they won’t. I’ve played D&D with a 6 year old, and she had no problem with the game itself.
That is hardly a rebuttal to you need to be able to do basic multiplication. Surely a typical six-year-old could be expected to do that (I know I could do it when I was six, and so could my younger brother, my friends' children, and my nieces when they were that age). EDIT: The typical six-year-old is probably not playing TTRPGs, but that would be for reasons of attention span rather than basic arithmetic.

Have you ever actually witnessed any person being confused by it? I haven’t.
Not that I remember, but I have only played with a tiny fraction of total 5e players (and mostly old hands who knew how these kind of things worked before 5e was even thought of). You know who else has only played with a tiny fraction of total 5e players? You!

I think it is, and I'm saying that as someone who played and ran a ton of 4e and had a blast. I personally like the at-will/encounter/daily setup but yes, it did mean every class had the same basic mechanics
Some points:
  1. Not every class even had the AEDU structure.
  2. Even amongst those that did, class features added powers and other mechanics outside that structure.
  3. Even ignoring that, the powers that fitted into that structure do different things.
For you talking point to be accurate, none of those things could be true. But they all are.

_
glass.
 

Warpiglet-7

Cry havoc! And let slip the pigs of war!
My question for those who answered “not special” do you think 4e would have had sustained growth and wide popularity of 5e if it had the public play test, critical role and whatever other external push 5e might have had?

I think accessibility and flavor in 5e are major selling points.

I never participated in the edition wars (that I know of!) and don’t want to now. But there was some homogeneity in 4e that I found very bland. For those into wild story making and the casual player, I don’t think that would have resonated.

The intial “success” of 4e probably speaks to old hands jumping on aboard without the gospel being spread easily to a wide audience. Hence it burned out.

(Yes I realize compared to others rpgs it still initially did “well” but brand loyalty was not enough to make year on year growth).
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
"Probably" huh? Basing that on...? Kinda arrogant of you, considering you don't know me, yeah?
Not at all.
I have been teaching for over 25 years...I feel I am probably not underestimating. I feel I am making an evaluation based on my experience.
You can’t possibly think that being a teacher makes you unbiased and automatically correct.

8 years do not, generally, have trouble with 5e D&D.
That is hardly a rebuttal to you need to be able to do basic multiplication. Surely a typical six-year-old could be expected to do that (I know I could do it when I was six, and so could my younger brother, my friends' children, and my nieces when they were that age).
It’s a rebuttal to the idea that an 8 year old will struggle with D&D. When kids learn what level of math is tangential.
Not that I remember, but I have only played with a tiny fraction of total 5e players (and mostly old hands who knew how these kind of things worked before 5e was even thought of). You know who else has only played with a tiny fraction of total 5e players? You!
Sure, and neither of us have ever seen it, I’ve never seen talk of it actually happening on any discussion platform, and the idea only comes up when someone is trying to show that 5e is confusing, but never has any examples of an instance of confusion.
 

glass

(he, him)
My question for those who answered “not special” do you think 4e would have had sustained growth and wide popularity of 5e if it had the public play test, critical role and whatever other external push 5e might have had?
Absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt. Well I am not sure the public playtest is necessary or even helpful, but if it had the rest....

EDIT: On reflection, if we were stuck with Keep on the Shadowfell that would hurt 4e. If 4e could have kicked of with an introductory adventure as good as LMoP is reputed to be (I have never played it myself), that would be the final piece of the puzzle.

_
glass.
 
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