D&D (2024) One D&D playtest, abilities that recharge when you roll initiative.

[Jfdlsjfd]

I think it's great! I always wanted a new excuse to murder-hobo. "But officer, I needed to recharge my encounter powers—I mean, on-initiative abilities!—and so you see that man had to die."

Bob: "Did you manage to open the lock?"
Jack: "No, it proved too hard, I'd need to retr...
Jill: "Inefficient moron! Why am I surrounded by incompetent hirelings... Fear the wrath of my destructive Meteor Shower of Doom spell!"
Jack: braces for the impeding disintegration
DM: err? roll for initiative?
Bob, Jack and Jill all do a high-five.
Jack: I resume working on the lock, using my Epic Boon of Luck.

[They apparently created a warlord in One, though it wasn't exactly how I envisioned the motivating aspect of the job].

 

[Reynard]

It seems to me that the "recharge on initiative" mechanism is an attempt to create space for "once per combat" abilities that do not come with the bundled difficulties inherent in 1 hour short rests (checking for wandering monsters, counting torches, weird in fiction resulting from stopping for lunch mid dungeon, whatever).

As far as that goes, it is fine. But really, D&D just needs to stop using hamfisted resource management tools when they have essentially eliminated the value of resource management from the game.

 

[Dausuul]

How is the start of violence not in fiction? It's violence in the fiction that triggers the rules for initiative.

Except that when initiative is rolled, no violence has happened yet. And it might not happen at all. The classic example is the hidden assassin who tries to start combat with surprise (for the auto-crit), then gets a natural 1 on initiative, and decides not to risk it.

Furthermore, tying effects to "rolling initiative" means you can't use initiative except for combat. Last night, we had two PCs (in a noncombat situation) both trying to act at the same time, so the DM had us roll initiative to determine what happened. This is something I've seen many times--initiative is a useful tool any time you have several people acting concurrently and you need to determine whose thing happens first.

If WotC wants an effect to trigger at the start of combat, they should just say "at the start of combat."

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Except that when initiative is rolled, no violence has happened yet. And it might not happen at all. The classic example is the hidden assassin who tries to start combat with surprise (for the auto-crit), then gets a natural 1 on initiative, and decides not to risk it.

Furthermore, tying effects to "rolling initiative" means you can't use initiative except for combat. Last night, we had two PCs (in a noncombat situation) both trying to act at the same time, so the DM had us roll initiative to determine what happened. This is something I've seen many times--initiative is a useful tool any time you have several people acting concurrently and you need to determine whose thing happens first.

If WotC wants an effect to trigger at the start of combat, they should just say "at the start of combat."

Given that the mechanic that tiggered this discussion was something that could be used in any D20 test and also recharged via rest once per initiative is functionally close enough to "start of combat" unless WoTC bring in mechanic that involves initiative out of combat. Which would be fine by me.

 

[Reynard]

Given that the mechanic that tiggered this discussion was something that could be used in any D20 test and also recharged via rest once per initiative is functionally close enough to "start of combat" unless WoTC bring in mechanic that involves initiative out of combat. Which would be fine by me.

Isn't "initiative" defined as a Dex ability check that happens specifically at the beginning of combat?

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Isn't "initiative" defined as a Dex ability check that happens specifically at the beginning of combat?

Pretty much but as originally conceived skill challenges in 4e were to be done in initiative order. Now, personally, I do not see any advantage in initiative order as distinct from round robin, but it is not inconceivable that WoTC could introduce some non-combat thing that is done in initiative order.
There is one other thing, a thing that occurs at the start of combat may be adjudicated as before initiative is rolled, and can affect the initiative roll itself, but a thing that occurs after initiative is rolled cannot affect the initiative roll itself.

 

[Dausuul]

Given that the mechanic that tiggered this discussion was something that could be used in any D20 test and also recharged via rest once per initiative is functionally close enough to "start of combat" unless WoTC bring in mechanic that involves initiative out of combat. Which would be fine by me.

Why do we need something that is "functionally close enough" to the start of combat, when it could be exactly equal to the start of combat, simply by saying "at the start of combat?"

Isn't "initiative" defined as a Dex ability check that happens specifically at the beginning of combat?

That is how the rulebook defines it. Yet the rulebook also makes it clear that it happens right before combat, because no one has actually done anything yet. And it is possible, if rare, for the people involved to make choices that result in combat not happening. It's a mechanic that works smoothly in most cases but gets wonky under close examination, and the more rules effects are hung on it, the more close examination it will have to bear.

Furthermore, hanging a lot of effects on the initiative roll means there are now significant consequences for using it "off-label," so to speak--as a tool for determining the sequence of events in a noncombat situation. While that use of initiative is not an official rule in 5E, it's a very helpful option to have.

As things stand, I don't think it's a big deal. Aside from things which modify the initiative roll itself, there aren't any "when you roll initiative" effects below 18th level in the current playtest packet. By the time you hit level 18, sorting out the precise meaning of "roll initiative" is the least of the DM's problems. But I hope they don't start using this mechanic more broadly.

 

[Reynard]

Yet the rulebook also makes it clear that it happens right before combat, because no one has actually done anything yet.

Per the SRD:
----------
Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The GM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time.

The GM ranks the combatants in order from the one with the highest Dexterity check total to the one with the lowest. This is the order (called the initiative order) in which they act during each round. The initiative order remains the same from round to round.
----------
It is just a procedural, metagame thing that happens "as" combat starts -- meaning there isn't really a before or after in this context. The GM declares combat is starting based on some action the PCs take or other change of state in the fiction, and part of that transition is the players rolling Dex checks for initiative order.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Why do we need something that is "functionally close enough" to the start of combat, when it could be exactly equal to the start of combat, simply by saying "at the start of combat?"

In the case of the epic boon that tiggered this thread, it is a D10 roll that can be added to any D20 test and recharges after initiative is rolled, or on a long or short rest.
This feature is worded in this way to ensure that if you have not discharged the ability and a roll for initiative is called for you can roll the D10 and add it to your initiative roll but if you have discharged the ability previously and not had a rest to recharge it you cannot use it on the initiative roll but it will recharge for use in the combat.

The Feat in question is the Epic Boon of Luck.

That is how the rulebook defines it. Yet the rulebook also makes it clear that it happens right before combat, because no one has actually done anything yet. And it is possible, if rare, for the people involved to make choices that result in combat not happening. It's a mechanic that works smoothly in most cases but gets wonky under close examination, and the more rules effects are hung on it, the more close examination it will have to bear.

Furthermore, hanging a lot of effects on the initiative roll means there are now significant consequences for using it "off-label," so to speak--as a tool for determining the sequence of events in a noncombat situation. While that use of initiative is not an official rule in 5E, it's a very helpful option to have.

As things stand, I don't think it's a big deal. Aside from things which modify the initiative roll itself, there aren't any "when you roll initiative" effects below 18th level in the current playtest packet. By the time you hit level 18, sorting out the precise meaning of "roll initiative" is the least of the DM's problems. But I hope they don't start using this mechanic more broadly.

Here I agree with @Reynard in this post above.

 

[darjr]

Looked around and there is a Lair action that causes initiative to be rerolled during combat. That of the Sphinx.

• The flow of time is altered such that every creature in the lair must reroll initiative. The sphinx can choose not to reroll.

I think that's tied to the fiction though since it is tied to a thing happening in the fiction. The sphinx reset time to the beginning of combat, sort of, but that's just one interpretation.

Are there other things like that?

Also a mount can change its initiative but doesn't reroll.

The only other time after combat starts when initiative is rolled is when a new combatant enters the combat. To me that's when the violence starts for them.

P.S. I'm stealing lair actions from the sphinx for Endelyn.