D&D (2024) One D&D playtest, abilities that recharge when you roll initiative.

[Charlaquin]

In the case of the epic boon that tiggered this thread, it is a D10 roll that can be added to any D20 test and recharges after initiative is rolled, or on a long or short rest.
This feature is worded in this way to ensure that if you have not discharged the ability and a roll for initiative is called for you can roll the D10 and add it to your initiative roll but if you have discharged the ability previously and not had a rest to recharge it you cannot use it on the initiative roll but it will recharge for use in the combat.

The Feat in question is the Epic Boon of Luck.

The thread is “abilities that recharge when you roll initiative,” of which there are multiple in the UA, not just Epic Boon of Luck. Arguably, Epic Boon of Luck is a poor example for discussion of the “recharge on initiative” mechanic, since it also recharges at other times. Darjr cherry-picked it to try and refute my argument that initiative recovery ties a feature inherently to combat.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

The thread is “abilities that recharge when you roll initiative,” of which there are multiple in the UA, not just Epic Boon of Luck. Arguably, Epic Boon of Luck is a poor example for discussion of the “recharge on initiative” mechanic, since it also recharges at other times. Darjr cherry-picked it to try and refute my argument that initiative recovery ties a feature inherently to combat.

All are Epic Boons and two of them are Recharge on Initiative or Long/Short Rest and Two on Initiative only.
However, in the very First post in this thread @darjr quotes this post

So, one thing I noticed:

EPIC BOON OF LUCK 20th-Level Feat Prerequisite: Expert Group Repeatable: No​

Immediately after you roll a d20 for a d20 Test, you can roll a d10 and add the number rolled to the test. Once you use this benefit, you can’t use it again until you roll Initiative or finish a Short Rest or a Long Rest.​

​

No comment on the feat itself, but the bolded part is something I haven't seen before in 5e nomenclature, and is a more elegant way to implement per-encounter features than I've previously seen in the official rules. I hope it'll see some use outside of the Epic Boons.

I responded with

It is the basis for the return of stealth encounter powers.

That is the basis of my response.

Now, I agree that formally in 5e initiative is only called for to sequence combat. But I have seen DMs use initiative, informally, to sequence anything where the order of actions may affect the outcome.
I will also note that initiative was also called for in skill challenges in 4e.

 

[MarkB]

Now, I agree that formally in 5e initiative is only called for to sequence combat. But I have seen DMs use initiative, informally, to sequence anything where the order of actions may affect the outcome.

That's fair. I've used initiative in such situations - for instance, if a character is reduced to 0 hit points as a result of falling damage or a trap, and their allies can't necessarily reach them immediately to provide medical assistance.

 

[Dausuul]

It is just a procedural, metagame thing that happens "as" combat starts -- meaning there isn't really a before or after in this context. The GM declares combat is starting based on some action the PCs take or other change of state in the fiction.

Except that, if the action is something hostile like swinging a sword or casting a spell, it isn't actually taken until after initiative is rolled. And depending on the result of the roll, and what other combatants do, the PCs might choose to do something else.

This is particularly an issue when combat is started by a hidden attacker, which is fairly common. And if the would-be assassin rolls really badly, they might decide not to attack after all. At this point, the assassin is still hidden. If the enemy fails to locate the assassin, combat doesn't happen.

So long as initiative is just a sequencing tool, this outcome may feel a little odd, but it isn't a problem. But when rolling initiative recharges abilities, then these scenarios become an issue.

In the original 5E rules, most "when you roll initiative" effects don't kick in until high level, and the same is true in the playtest (so far), so it's not a big deal. By levels 15+, you're basically playing Calvinball anyway. But I would not want to see these effects show up at lower levels where normal games happen.

 

[Reynard]

Except that, if the action is something hostile like swinging a sword or casting a spell, it isn't actually taken until after initiative is rolled. And depending on the result of the roll, and what other combatants do, the PCs might choose to do something else.

This is particularly an issue when combat is started by a hidden attacker, which is fairly common. And if the would-be assassin rolls really badly, they might decide not to attack after all. At this point, the assassin is still hidden. If the enemy fails to locate the assassin, combat doesn't happen.

So long as initiative is just a sequencing tool, this outcome may feel a little odd, but it isn't a problem. But when rolling initiative recharges abilities, then these scenarios become an issue.

In the original 5E rules, most "when you roll initiative" effects don't kick in until high level, and the same is true in the playtest (so far), so it's not a big deal. By levels 15+, you're basically playing Calvinball anyway. But I would not want to see these effects show up at lower levels where normal games happen.

I mean, this is why we have GMs. Initiative is rolled, per the rules, at the start of combat. But like all other rolls, it is up to the GM to decide if a roll is needed. As such, one doesn't get to hide behind "we rolled Initiative but the assassin never struck" because there is literally no combat unless the assassin strikes. Therefore, in that example, the assassin strikes and THEN combat begins and Initiative is rolled.


Now, I often use a kludge: if a PC or NPC is instigating combat and there is no reason to believe combat would start without their initiating action, everyone but them rolls Initiative and they go first. In the context of the rule being discussed in the thread, I would say their initiating act counts as "rolling Initiative" for any associated Initiative dependent abilities.

 

[cbwjm]

Now, I often use a kludge: if a PC or NPC is instigating combat and there is no reason to believe combat would start without their initiating action, everyone but them rolls Initiative and they go first. In the context of the rule being discussed in the thread, I would say their initiating act counts as "rolling Initiative" for any associated Initiative dependent abilities.

I do something similar, but I have them roll and just start at their initiative. Which now that I think about it, might skew things a little as, if they have a terrible initiative roll, the people with higher initiative will be going later than those with a low initiative. I might have to take your idea and grant them the highest initiative +1.

 

[pemerton]

I mean, this is why we have GMs. Initiative is rolled, per the rules, at the start of combat. But like all other rolls, it is up to the GM to decide if a roll is needed. As such, one doesn't get to hide behind "we rolled Initiative but the assassin never struck" because there is literally no combat unless the assassin strikes. Therefore, in that example, the assassin strikes and THEN combat begins and Initiative is rolled.

This seems to make impossible a fairly classic fantasy trope (I'm thinking especially of REH's Conan): the assassin strikes but the hero sense the strike coming, turns and cuts down the assassin.

Mechanically, that looks like: the action 'I strike" is declared for the assassin; then initiative is rolled, imposing whatever penalty for surprise is appropriate; despite the penalty, Conan's player wins the initiative roll and Conan whirls and cuts down the assassin.

I'll admit that @Dausuul's approach has a different issue: that the action can be declared for the assassin that triggers the initiative roll, but they don't follow through when their turn comes around (yay stop motion resolution!).

These problems with initiative systems and turn-by-turn resolution are one of the reasons I regard them as metagame frameworks rather than as corresponding to something in the fiction.

 

[Bill Zebub]

This seems to make impossible a fairly classic fantasy trope (I'm thinking especially of REH's Conan): the assassin strikes but the hero sense the strike coming, turns and cuts down the assassin.

Mechanically, that looks like: the action 'I strike" is declared for the assassin; then initiative is rolled, imposing whatever penalty for surprise is appropriate; despite the penalty, Conan's player wins the initiative roll and Conan whirls and cuts down the assassin.

I'll admit that @Dausuul's approach has a different issue: that the action can be declared for the assassin that triggers the initiative roll, but they don't follow through when their turn comes around (yay stop motion resolution!).

These problems with initiative systems and turn-by-turn resolution are one of the reasons I regard them as metagame frameworks rather than as corresponding to something in the fiction.

In a similar vein, I didn't chime in on the recent discussion about monsters "metagaming" the opportunity attack rules...e.g. after a PC has used their reaction to make an OA, the other monsters knowing that the PC can't make more OAs...but what I imagine in the fiction is that it's all simultaneous, and the other monsters are thinking, "He's distracted trying to stab Larry; now's my chance!"

 

[darjr]

I’d think that a hidden attacker wouldn’t be surprised while their targets would be, essentially giving the hidden attacker the real first action in combat.

Being surprised they can’t move or take actions or reactions. It’s not just that they can’t go it is also, on occasion, to simulate that the hidden attacker did indeed act first, sorta. No need to force an initiative order or assign an initiative to give them the first slot in initiative order.

In fact if you have a situation where a participant absolutely acted first but may be lower in initiative you could rule that everyone else is surprised.

I’d have to look but I think lair or legendary actions are considered “actions” here. Though I’d leave that up to the DM depending upon the lair or legendary action.

 

[Andvari]

Initiative in the fiction represents who acts first when it becomes clear the opponent is hostile. Perhaps he lifts his sword in preparation for a strike, but you roll higher on initiative and stab him in the chest with your dagger before he can swing. It was perhaps simpler to understand in early editions, like B/X when both sides would declare actions each round before rolling initiative?

Anyway, I'm not sure it's a good idea to refresh abilities based on whether you are in combat or not. DM can of course object to strike down abuse, but potentially you could refresh abilities by starting harmless duels with another party members or by attacking trivial opponents. Seems better to tie it to something like a short rest to me.