D&D (2024) One D&D playtest, abilities that recharge when you roll initiative.

[DEFCON 1]

Initiative is a meta-game mechanic that establishes turn order for combat. Resting is a mechanic reflecting the characters taking time to rest and recuperate. I'm not sure how the latter is more "very meta-gamey" than the former unless its some sort of guilt by association with something that 4e did.

I suspect he means it from the player's perspective. The player says they want to rest in order to regain an ability for their character, not that the character wants a rest because in-game the character is tired.

I mean honestly all Rests and such are metagamey, as it's never taken because the character thinks they need it, it's always when the player thinks they need it to regain their character abilities. No one "in-game" would take an 8-hour "long rest" in the middle of the afternoon... they'd always take it at night and go to sleep like normal people (excepting the few times in a campaign when a night-time raid of something was required.)

 

[Maxperson]

This sounds like it would be useful for a great many things. What would you like to use it? I don’t think I’ve seen it before this test.

It existed. Battle Masters and some other classes had the ability.

"RELENTLESS
Starting at 15th level, when you roll initiative and have no superiority dice remaining, you regain one superiority die."

 

[Bill Zebub]

I suspect he means it from the player's perspective. The player says they want to rest in order to regain an ability for their character, not that the character wants a rest because in-game the character is tired.

Yes, this. Initiative is a metagame construct, but players aren't making decisions of when to use it. I suppose a better comparison would be the new feat that lets a player swap initiative with another player.

I mean honestly all Rests and such are metagamey, as it's never taken because the character thinks they need it, it's always when the player thinks they need it to regain their character abilities. No one "in-game" would take an 8-hour "long rest" in the middle of the afternoon... they'd always take it at night and go to sleep like normal people (excepting the few times in a campaign when a night-time raid of something was required.)

I sort of agree here, but there's also an in-game narrative of "We're beat; we need to rest." That even makes some sense for short rest spells. "I'm fried; I need to meditate." So it really depends, in my mind, on what the ability is.

Again, I'm not really saying there's anything wrong with this. I play with these sorts of metagame decisions all the time. I'm just offering this in response to @Aldarc's comment about the DM deciding when the characters get to refresh their abilities: I'm not sure either version is better/worse.

 

[Reynard]

What is the purpose of limited resources, from a design intent I mean? If it is make the big fights cooler because the players will save their strongest abilities for the BBEG, it's terrible design. Players don't like losing and sometimes "easy" fights go bad, so there's no guarantee those big guns won't come out against the little fish. There are alternative systems you could use to better ensure the big fights are cooler.

The adventuring day and resource management are so estranged from the most common playstyle that I think now is the time to quietly kill it.

 

[Aldarc]

I suspect he means it from the player's perspective. The player says they want to rest in order to regain an ability for their character, not that the character wants a rest because in-game the character is tired.

I mean honestly all Rests and such are metagamey, as it's never taken because the character thinks they need it, it's always when the player thinks they need it to regain their character abilities. No one "in-game" would take an 8-hour "long rest" in the middle of the afternoon... they'd always take it at night and go to sleep like normal people (excepting the few times in a campaign when a night-time raid of something was required.)

Does an in-game character ever feel tired? Is actual PC tiredness reflected in any way mechanically in D&D?

Yes, this. Initiative is a metagame construct, but players aren't making decisions of when to use it. I suppose a better comparison would be the new feat that lets a player swap initiative with another player.

No, but it does put the mechanic in the GM's hands as the GM calls for initiative rolls, so the resource management side of things for players is pretty non-existent if that too is going to be handed over to the GM.

I sort of agree here, but there's also an in-game narrative of "We're beat; we need to rest." That even makes some sense for short rest spells. "I'm fried; I need to meditate." So it really depends, in my mind, on what the ability is.

Again, I'm not really saying there's anything wrong with this. I play with these sorts of metagame decisions all the time. I'm just offering this in response to @Aldarc's comment about the DM deciding when the characters get to refresh their abilities: I'm not sure either version is better/worse.

Yeah, I don't mind metagaming, but I also use metagame as a term used to describe game play beyond the level of rules rather than as a blanket term for "cheating." The rules of the NBA say that a player fouls out after five personal fouls. The metagame is about teams managing those fouls, whether drawing fouls or making fouls, and using them to manipulate play. Likewise, a big part of how Texas Hold 'Em poker is played at the professional level entails the metagame of poker outside of the prescribed rules: e.g., bluffing, card counting, etc. I see players metagaming in tabletop games along these lines.

But I think that it's important to recognize how Initiative Refresh shifts the dynamic of PC recharge from something that players can initiate to something that the GM initiates.

 

[Xamnam]

Does an in-game character ever feel tired? Is actual PC tiredness reflected in any way mechanically in D&D?

Running out of hp, hit dice, action surges, second winds, spell slots, ki points, and so on all read to me as manifesting to the player characters as: I'm spent/I'm out of energy/I need to rest if I'm going to be a competent member of this group. Functional tiredness, not being able to push yourself past the basics, if albeit not necessarily being "sleepy."

 

[Zaukrie]

I didn't read the entire thread, as I just couldn't.....

I endorse the return of encounter powers (which these are close to). I understand some had issues with those, as they didn't think it made sense with fiction....but I always thought of it as an opportunity. You have an opportunity to do things once and awhile, and encounter/daily/etc. powers reflect that. You rarely have an opportunity to do that one thing in a fight, the rules saying you can do it once in a fight reflects that opportunity.

Anyway, this is much simpler than forcing short rests.....

 

[Zaukrie]

Except that when initiative is rolled, no violence has happened yet. And it might not happen at all. The classic example is the hidden assassin who tries to start combat with surprise (for the auto-crit), then gets a natural 1 on initiative, and decides not to risk it.

Furthermore, tying effects to "rolling initiative" means you can't use initiative except for combat. Last night, we had two PCs (in a noncombat situation) both trying to act at the same time, so the DM had us roll initiative to determine what happened. This is something I've seen many times--initiative is a useful tool any time you have several people acting concurrently and you need to determine whose thing happens first.

If WotC wants an effect to trigger at the start of combat, they should just say "at the start of combat."

I see nothing that says you can't use initiative outside combat at all. Where does it say that?

 

[Reynard]

I see nothing that says you can't use initiative outside combat at all. Where does it say that?

The definition of initiative is specific to combat in the rules as written. One could certainly use dex (or other) checks to determine turn order when needed, but by definition that is not initiative if it isn't rolled "as combat begins."

 

[Zaukrie]

The definition of initiative is specific to combat in the rules as written. One could certainly use dex (or other) checks to determine turn order when needed, but by definition that is not initiative if it isn't rolled "as combat begins."

Fair, I must not be fully awake at this point. I use it for more than that, but sometimes I forget I've been playing forever, and that I do things that aren't RAW.