D&D (2024) One D&D playtest, abilities that recharge when you roll initiative.

[DEFCON 1]

Does an in-game character ever feel tired? Is actual PC tiredness reflected in any way mechanically in D&D?

Sure, but that's not the point from my perspective. From my perspective the point is that players only request to take Rests when it makes mechanical sense for them to do so. If there's no mechanical benefit, then they don't.

If the DM narrates a six-day road journey, no one ever says "Oh, by the way, obviously my PC is going to get tired during those six days of travel, so I want to take two Short Rests at 11am and 3pm, and then a Long Rest each night" in order to "play their character". Nope... those rests are just ignored completely and becomes an assumed thing that just happens during the "You've traveled for six days" narration and not something the player-as-PC needs to announce.

The only time players actually announce that they want to take a Short or Long Rest is when the game mechanics require that announcement by made in order to refresh. Which means the rests the players make are due to a metagame consideration and not a narrative one.

I mean not that it matters either way. Whether a Rest occurs because the player genuinely emotionally feels their character is just worn out, or because they have a bunch of game mechanics they want to refresh for the next leg of the journey... the results are the same.

 

[MarkB]

The hostile act triggers it. The creak of assassins leather boot as he puts weight on it just before firing. Slight motion as he leans to get the best shot. Whatever it is, the victim will notice something before the shot happens and if he wins initiative, will react before that shot goes off. If he loses initiative to the assassin, then the assassin was in the perfect position and just had to fire.

That's a reasonable interpretation, and I think it's fair enough to have the higher-initiative character be aware that something is off. But until either they or the hidden character does something that ends the Hidden condition, it will still be in effect for the assassin on their turn, and they can still choose what actions to take, or not take, on that turn.

 

[Aldarc]

Sure, but that's not the point from my perspective. From my perspective the point is that players only request to take Rests when it makes mechanical sense for them to do so. If there's no mechanical benefit, then they don't.

If the DM narrates a six-day road journey, no one ever says "Oh, by the way, obviously my PC is going to get tired during those six days of travel, so I want to take two Short Rests at 11am and 3pm, and then a Long Rest each night" in order to "play their character". Nope... those rests are just ignored completely and becomes an assumed thing that just happens during the "You've traveled for six days" narration and not something the player-as-PC needs to announce.

Characters also generally never announce that they are going to the toilet or relieving themselves nor would they unless there was a mechanical reason to do so. As @Xamnam says, the character needing/wanting rest is implicitly tied to their mechanical resources (e.g., HP, spells, abilities, etc.).

 

[Maxperson]

That's a reasonable interpretation, and I think it's fair enough to have the higher-initiative character be aware that something is off. But until either they or the hidden character does something that ends the Hidden condition, it will still be in effect for the assassin on their turn, and they can still choose what actions to take, or not take, on that turn.

It depends on how you view combat.

If you view it entirely as discreet turns where nobody else goes(outside of specific exceptions) until a person's turn is done, then that works out fine.

If you view it as partially(it can't be entirely due to turn based rules) simultaneous, then the assassin and hero are both moving at the same time or close to it, so the assassin can partially move, make noise, or whatever before initiative is rolled to see who actually gets to act first.

The hidden condition isn't even a thing if we're seeing which side can act first. If the victim is unaware of the assassin before initiative he is surprised. That means that he cant act or move, so the best he can hope for is to win initiative and avoid giving the assassin advantage and an auto crit on the assassins attack.

 

[MarkB]

It depends on how you view combat.

If you view it entirely as discreet turns where nobody else goes(outside of specific exceptions) until a person's turn is done, then that works out fine.

If you view it as partially(it can't be entirely due to turn based rules) simultaneous, then the assassin and hero are both moving at the same time or close to it, so the assassin can partially move, make noise, or whatever before initiative is rolled to see who actually gets to act first.

The hidden condition isn't even a thing if we're seeing which side can act first. If the victim is unaware of the assassin before initiative he is surprised. That means that he cant act or move, so the best he can hope for is to win initiative and avoid giving the assassin advantage and an auto crit on the assassins attack.

So, what would you be telling the assassin's player when he says, before initiative is rolled, that he's going for a shot? Would you be saying that he's committed to attacking on his turn, regardless of the initiative roll or what his target does on their turn, or would you be saying that, regardless of whether or not he chooses to take the shot, he'll be considered to no longer be hiding after his turn? Or is he revealed on someone else's turn if they win initiative?

I can get behind the it's-all-basically-simultaneous bit, it's when that presupposes a character's action that it gets hazy for me.

 

[Maxperson]

So, what would you be telling the assassin's player when he says, before initiative is rolled, that he's going for a shot? Would you be saying that he's committed to attacking on his turn, regardless of the initiative roll or what his target does on their turn, or would you be saying that, regardless of whether or not he chooses to take the shot, he'll be considered to no longer be hiding after his turn? Or is he revealed on someone else's turn if they win initiative?

When he says he's taking the shot, he takes the shot if the target doesn't know that he is there. Surprise happens, initiative is rolled and the best the target can hope for is to win and turn it into a normal shot by noticing the assassin right before the trigger is pulled on the crossbow or something. If he loses, the assassin PC gets advantage and crit if he hits.

Now if the target makes his perception roll, then he knows the assassin is there prior to initiative being rolled. When initiative is rolled if the target wins, then he gets to act first as normal and the assassin might not want to take the shot on his turn. There's no reason to hold the assassin to the action of taking a shot when it was predicated on surprise which isn't there.

 

[MarkB]

When he says he's taking the shot, he takes the shot if the target doesn't know that he is there. Surprise happens, initiative is rolled and the best the target can hope for is to win and turn it into a normal shot by noticing the assassin right before the trigger is pulled on the crossbow or something. If he loses, the assassin PC gets advantage and crit if he hits.

Now if the target makes his perception roll, then he knows the assassin is there prior to initiative being rolled. When initiative is rolled if the target wins, then he gets to act first as normal and the assassin might not want to take the shot on his turn. There's no reason to hold the assassin to the action of taking a shot when it was predicated on surprise which isn't there.

Okay, but if the target wins initiative, fails his perception check, and the assassin chooses not to take the shot (because the player knows his Assassination ability won't trigger, or because the target wanders out of line-of-sight), does the target know he's there? And if not, can this 'combat' end without there having actually been any hostilities? That's what I was trying to get at in the first place.

 

[darjr]

When he says he's taking the shot, he takes the shot if the target doesn't know that he is there. Surprise happens, initiative is rolled and the best the target can hope for is to win and turn it into a normal shot by noticing the assassin right before the trigger is pulled on the crossbow or something. If he loses, the assassin PC gets advantage and crit if he hits.

Now if the target makes his perception roll, then he knows the assassin is there prior to initiative being rolled. When initiative is rolled if the target wins, then he gets to act first as normal and the assassin might not want to take the shot on his turn. There's no reason to hold the assassin to the action of taking a shot when it was predicated on surprise which isn't there.

The target doesn’t get a perception roll. Not generally. He’s surprised. No actions on their turn. That’s determined at initiative. He had a chance with his passive.

Though I will add that in the players turn they could decide not to attack, but I’d consider that a retcon, your mileage may vary, still as DM id allow it because not to isn’t raw or fair. Imho

Edit: oh wait, I think i misunderstood you.

 

[Maxperson]

Okay, but if the target wins initiative, fails his perception check, and the assassin chooses not to take the shot (because the player knows his Assassination ability won't trigger, or because the target wanders out of line-of-sight), does the target know he's there?

The assassin has no way of knowing that he lost initiative since the target hasn't moved or acted. There isn't a sign up in the air that says, Target 19, Assassin 14. The target may get lucky and notice something in time to prevent a crit or advantage, but that's it. The assassin has surprise and takes the shot.

 

[Charlaquin]

I suspect he means it from the player's perspective. The player says they want to rest in order to regain an ability for their character, not that the character wants a rest because in-game the character is tired.

Obviously the character is too tired to use that ability again until they’ve rested.