D&D (2024) One D&D playtest, abilities that recharge when you roll initiative.

[MarkB]

I’d think that a hidden attacker wouldn’t be surprised while their targets would be, essentially giving the hidden attacker the real first action in combat.

Being surprised they can’t move or take actions or reactions. It’s not just that they can’t go it is also, on occasion, to simulate that the hidden attacker did indeed act first, sorta. No need to force an initiative order or assign an initiative to give them the first slot in initiative order.

In fact if you have a situation where a participant absolutely acted first but may be lower in initiative you could rule that everyone else is surprised.

I’d have to look but I think lair or legendary actions are considered “actions” here. Though I’d leave that up to the DM depending upon the lair or legendary action.

Worth noting, there are indications in the playtest package that Surprise may be being changed to simply "you gain advantage on initiative rolls".

 

[Charlaquin]

Worth noting, there are indications in the playtest package that Surprise may be being changed to simply "you gain advantage on initiative rolls".

More specifically, it seems like there won’t be a single Surprised status, but various features that represent having an edge due to catching your opponents off-guard will grant advantage on initiative, and various features that represent being on the back foot due to having been caught off-guard will impose disadvantage on initiative.

 

[CleverNickName]

Eh, I'm not a fan. Combat abilities that "turn on" whenever combat starts might as well just be at-will abilities and balanced accordingly, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Reynard]

This seems to make impossible a fairly classic fantasy trope (I'm thinking especially of REH's Conan): the assassin strikes but the hero sense the strike coming, turns and cuts down the assassin.

Mechanically, that looks like: the action 'I strike" is declared for the assassin; then initiative is rolled, imposing whatever penalty for surprise is appropriate; despite the penalty, Conan's player wins the initiative roll and Conan whirls and cuts down the assassin.

I'll admit that @Dausuul's approach has a different issue: that the action can be declared for the assassin that triggers the initiative roll, but they don't follow through when their turn comes around (yay stop motion resolution!).

These problems with initiative systems and turn-by-turn resolution are one of the reasons I regard them as metagame frameworks rather than as corresponding to something in the fiction.

In that case Conan wasn't surprised (probably can't be surprised).

 

[DEFCON 1]

Seems to me that every experienced player of D&D runs their initiative rules just slightly differently. As a result... we shouldn't take any of our opinions at face-value when using them in trying to decide the proper way to write a rule on something like this-- especially when it comes to worrying about the vagarities of in-game or metagame indication.

I mean other than some people who don't treat them the same for whatever their personal gaming reasons are... "at the start of combat" and "rolling initiative" are the same thing. At the start of combat you roll initiative, as shown by @Reynard above. So for any new players who are experiencing this for the first time you could write the rule either way and it would indicate the same timing window. I would imagine though that for D&D specifically they go with initiative because "Roll for Initiative" is an iconic phrase in D&D... one which new players will learn quickly and hear most often.

At the end of the day the effect is the same... your PC gets a special ability to use once every new combat begins, regardless of when or how often actual Rests have been taken.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

In that case Conan wasn't surprised (probably can't be surprised).

Fundamental difference. Once or twice per combat != at-will.

I would however also prefer recharge on a breather (1 min rest). Abilities should not be balanced around the fact, that a combat needs to start.

 

[TwoSix]

This IMHO moves the game closer to revolving around combat rather than otherwise. This switch is interesting because it's fundamentally Recharge per Combat rather than Recharge per Rest.

I don't mind, but it's hard to imagine how recharging on rolling Initiative* as an isolated mechanic is somehow less "video gamey" than 4e's encounter powers that recharged based on rest.

* Combat starts. Roll for Initiative! The video game combat music plays. The pixelated characters get in their swaying combat poses. The abilities have now recharged.

Yea, I have no problem with ability recharge being metagame (honestly, I think it works better for a lot of abilities), but it's hard to argue that initiative is not metagame.

 

[Aldarc]

Yea, I have no problem with ability recharge being metagame (honestly, I think it works better for a lot of abilities), but it's hard to argue that initiative is not metagame.

The other weird thing about this though is that this puts the recharge in the hands of the DM rather than players. Players may decide when they want to at least try to rest. Players do not get to decide when they roll initiative. They may try to trigger it through violence, but the DM makes the call when players roll for initiative. So the DM gates when player abilities recharge. That's kinda funky to me.

 

[Bill Zebub]

The other weird thing about this though is that this puts the recharge in the hands of the DM rather than players. Players may decide when they want to at least try to rest. Players do not get to decide when they roll initiative. They may try to trigger it through violence, but the DM makes the call when players roll for initiative. So the DM gates when player abilities recharge. That's kinda funky to me.

The flip side to that is that taking a rest in order to recharge an ability is very meta-gamey. Not saying there’s anything wrong with that, but it’s there.

 

[Aldarc]

The flip side to that is that taking a rest in order to recharge an ability is very meta-gamey. Not saying there’s anything wrong with that, but it’s there.

Initiative is a meta-game mechanic that establishes turn order for combat. Resting is a mechanic reflecting the characters taking time to rest and recuperate. I'm not sure how the latter is more "very meta-gamey" than the former unless its some sort of guilt by association with something that 4e did.