D&D 5E The power of smite

[Blue]

5th level paladin using a greatsword. 10STR No feats or shenanigans, just class features and smites.

Two attacks.

With super double crit luck: 8d6+12d8 radiant (rerolling 1s and 2s)

With Crit and a hit: 6d6+9d8 (reroll 1, 2)

With Crit: 4d6 + 6d8 (reroll 1, 2)

With hit: 2d6 + 3d8 (reroll 1, 2)

Of the multiple scenarios 0, 20, 41, 61, or 82 damage (not factoring in the 1,2 reroll).

Show me another 5th level character that could come close to these numbers using just class abilities.

Easy, a rogue. A fighter. Barbarian. Heck, a ranger with the right feats.

Because you are asking the wrong question. The way you are asking the question masks that you are using up a limited resource.

It is also looking at the corner case of not just a crit where beign able to apply to that does more, but to double crits. 1 in 400 is not, ever, a good indication of general play.

Now, run 6 encounters in a day. Total up your damage from your smite and non-smite attacks. Compare to totals from other classes. The at-will rogue will have a very consistent expected output - and crits will also double their 3d6 SA. Not as many dice, but happens in a heck of a lot more rounds of the day then a paladin smiting.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Zerker Barbarian with GWM, using Reckless Attacks and raging.

Do the math...and if you are using GWM then redo my math also using GWM. I left out feats.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Do the math...and if you are using GWM then redo my math also using GWM. I left out feats.

I haven’t done any math so there’s nothing to re-do, but if I get a chance I will take a look at it.

The Paladin won’t benefit as much from GWM because he can’t get advantage on the attack roll at will.

Sure, ~once every 400 turns the Paladin will get two crits.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Easy, a rogue. A fighter. Barbarian. Heck, a ranger with the right feats.

Because you are asking the wrong question. The way you are asking the question masks that you are using up a limited resource.

It is also looking at the corner case of not just a crit where beign able to apply to that does more, but to double crits. 1 in 400 is not, ever, a good indication of general play.

Now, run 6 encounters in a day. Total up your damage from your smite and non-smite attacks. Compare to totals from other classes. The at-will rogue will have a very consistent expected output - and crits will also double their 3d6 SA. Not as many dice, but happens in a heck of a lot more rounds of the day then a paladin smiting.

Delete

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Easy, a rogue. A fighter. Barbarian. Heck, a ranger with the right feats.

Because you are asking the wrong question. The way you are asking the question masks that you are using up a limited resource.

It is also looking at the corner case of not just a crit where beign able to apply to that does more, but to double crits. 1 in 400 is not, ever, a good indication of general play.

Actually, nevermind.

I laid out the damage expected from all four scenarios of misses, hits and crits in my post but I guess people just stopped at the first line and said I'm arguing in bad faith because it's a 1 in 400 chance the paladin does a lot of damage.

If people aren't going to respond to my entire post it's not much of a discussion anyway.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I laid out the damage expected from all four scenarios of misses, hits and crits in my post

The problem is that you didn't weight them by frequency. All four of those scenarios are not equally probable.

Also, a 5th level paladin gets a total of six spell slots. So you forgot the other four scenarios, when they get two hits, or two crits, or a crit and a hit, but don't have (or don't use) any smites.

Here's some numbers for frenzy barbarian vs paladin...I'm doing this as I type so I honestly don't know which will come out ahead (and I'll probably makes some mistakes)...without feats and ignoring Strength bonus

Let's say in between long rests the Paladin does a total of 12 rounds of combat. At two attacks per round that's 24 attacks. With a 66% chance to hit, that's 16 hits. On average less than one of those will be a crit, but let's round up to one, and even assume that he still has a 2nd level spell slot available when it happens.

So, you get 10 normal hits for 2d6
Four hits with 1st level smite, for 2d6 + 2d8
One hit with 2nd level smite, for 2d6 + 3d8
One crit with 2nd level smite, for 4d6 + 6d8

That's 34d6 + 17d8 = average of 195.5 total damage

Since the Paladin perfectly times his adventuring day, the zerker barbarian does, too, and frenzies once earlier in the day frenzies again on the boss battle at the end of the day. So let's say of those 12 rounds of combat, 6 are with frenzy. He gets a total of 30 attacks.

Furthermore, he uses Reckless Attacks on every attack, which means his 1/3 chance of missing becomes 1/6. So he hits with 5/6 attacks, or 25 of them. He also is approximately twice as likely to crit, and if we give him the same good luck as the paladin, 1/16 instead of 1/20, that means 3 crits. He gets:

22 regular hits of 2d6 + 2 (rage)
3 crits of 4d6 + 2

So 56d6 + 50 damage, which averages to....drumroll....246.

(Again, if we did allow GWM the barbarian would benefit significantly more because of Reckless Attacks.)

EDIT: On the other hand, in a fight against a Shadow Demon, if the Paladin happens to get two crits, and happens to have both 2nd level spell slots available, that's 4d6 + 8d8 on each hit, for an average of exactly 100 damage in one turn. Somewhere in the world, at some point in the last 8 years, a lucky player had this happen. Maybe they even rolled above average damage.

 

[Ancalagon]

the power of smite - and of the paladin in general - is very dependent on how many encounters per long rest you have. If you get to nova every fight... daaaamn. If you don't, it's a lot more modest of an impact.

 

[Bill Zebub]

the power of smite - and of the paladin in general - is very dependent on how many encounters per long rest you have. If you get to nova every fight... daaaamn. If you don't, it's a lot more modest of an impact.

That's a more succinct way of putting it.

Playing Solasta, Paladins are awesome at those random encounters while traveling, because you know it's 1/day.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The fact that there is divine smite and smite spell that AFAIK are entirely unconnected in any mechanical sense is extremely weird to me, I feel like one should be able to be used to boost/modify the other.

 

[Oofta]

That's a more succinct way of putting it.

Playing Solasta, Paladins are awesome at those random encounters while traveling, because you know it's 1/day.

True, but once you get into a dungeon and have to find rest points it's a different story. It's practically impossible to balance every class and in a real game what you expect to be a one fight that day scenario could turn into a whole side adventure. Well, at least in my game that "random" encounter could lead to wanting to a side quest I'm throwing in for a change of pace.