fluffybunbunkittens
Hero
If WotC is committed to spending time and space on putting in epic boons, at least someone would get to make use of them if they were available at a level people play at...
Sure, but I'm still going to push for real changes that might actually start to put a dent in the disparity between casters and martials.
Didn't exactly work out well in 3e, that. Could it be done better? Perhaps, but then you'd really have to give some spectacularly powerful feats at higher levels to even get up to the level of mythical Herakles let alone the superhero powers of high-level casters (which, I guarantee, will not be taken away).Well, if you're going to do that, are you going to allow feats to be partially the means with which that is fulfilled.
If anything the playtest package suggests a significant increase in that disparity. Look at what Sorcerors and Wizards got.
Didn't exactly work out well in 3e, that. Could it be done better? Perhaps, but then you'd really have to give some spectacularly powerful feats at higher levels to even get up to the level of mythical Herakles let alone the superhero powers of high-level casters (which, I guarantee, will not be taken away).
Why do they need to do things comparable to casters? They should have abilities that allow them to sometimes bypass a challenge alltogether, sure, but it doesn't need to be anything like blowing up a mountain or whatever.If anything the playtest package suggests a significant increase in that disparity. Look at what Sorcerors and Wizards got.
Didn't exactly work out well in 3e, that. Could it be done better? Perhaps, but then you'd really have to give some spectacularly powerful feats at higher levels to even get up to the level of mythical Herakles let alone the superhero powers of high-level casters (which, I guarantee, will not be taken away).
This thread is to discuss the new fighter.
So all in all, pretty solid. First, the bonus to indomitable is great! Its not quite auto-pass like I was hoping but it gets pretty close at high levels. Also the ability at higher levels to combine an indomitable and heal is very nice!
On the masteries, I think they will be nice editions, although I do think WOTC doesn't understand that more masteries really isn't a benefit. You get 3 at the start and you can swap them with a long rest....I mean what else do you need? That's 2 melee and a ranged weapon right there. Getting to 4th and 5th weapons for masteries, that seems like a complete ribbon at that point. Obviously using multiple masteries on the same weapon is cool.
And of course the greatest flavor victory, giving Persuasion to the fighter! While there have already been a number of ways to do this through backgrounds and the like, its nice that WOTC acknowledges the Fighter is often the leader of the group in flavor, and needs to have a bit of persuasive charisma to get the job done at times.
In terms of the Champion, the new powers are both simple and generally quite useful. Another skill....absolutely. More heroic inspiration, can always use more of that. I appreciated that they focused a bit more on the breadth here, giving the champion options that can be used in combat, or more out of combat stuff if they want to.
Overall I would give the new fighter and the weapons changes a D-. I can't really look at the fighter alone because it is really the combination with the weapon changes that makes it unlikable for me.
The change to indomitable is the only good thing and I like Persuasion being an available skill (honestly I think all skills except Religion should be available to fighter).
The rest of the class changes I do not like at all. A couple key things:
Will this fighter be equal power to a high level caster, eh probably not. Is it a step in the right direction and overall an improvement to the original concept? It is indeed.
Are you kidding me? Fighters are WAY more common than any caster right now.Yup that’s what D&D is now. Casters
If they're not comparable to casters at high levels, then just make Fighter a class with 10 levels and have them get all their abilities in those levels. Make it explicit that this is a game where anyone who doesn't have spells doesn't have high-levels because their abilities stop. Stop pretending that the game gives martials high-level abilities at all.Why do they need to do things comparable to casters? They should have abilities that allow them to sometimes bypass a challenge alltogether, sure, but it doesn't need to be anything like blowing up a mountain or whatever.
Interesting example there, particularly since you also call out "blowing up mountains" in the first paragraph. Warriors get the Fantasy abilities, Casters get the tall tales. That'll clear up all the complaints about caster-martial disparity forever.Stuff like what can be done with athletics and acrobatics after certain levels, class features that increase speed or jump distance, features that give "even more powerful build" because you're a demigod, whatever, cool.
But the oft cited cutting through mountains with your sword just...I want fantasy, not tall tales.
This is absurd hyperbole with no purpose. Fighters get high level abilities. The high level fighter could even still get abilities that allow them to bypass some challenges. They just can’t be overtly magical, unless they’re abilities for a subclass that is overtly magical.If they're not comparable to casters at high levels, then just make Fighter a class with 10 levels and have them get all their abilities in those levels. Make it explicit that this is a game where anyone who doesn't have spells doesn't have high-levels because their abilities stop. Stop pretending that the game gives martials high-level abilities at all.
Hercules can’t blow up mountains. Chu Chulain couldn’t cut one in half with his sword. And these are deified mythical figures.Interesting example there, particularly since you also call out "blowing up mountains" in the first paragraph.
No, casters having strange and terrible power is fantasy.Warriors get the Fantasy abilities, Casters get the tall tales.
I really don’t care. There will always be such complaints. If you stayed truly martial in 4e it still happened. Because “guy with sword” has to do different kinds of things than “sorcerer”.That'll clear up all the complaints about caster-martial disparity forever.
OTOH, at tiers 3 and 4, fighters should be as equally legendary and mythic as casters.Why do they need to do things comparable to casters? They should have abilities that allow them to sometimes bypass a challenge alltogether, sure, but it doesn't need to be anything like blowing up a mountain or whatever.
Stuff like what can be done with athletics and acrobatics after certain levels, class features that increase speed or jump distance, features that give "even more powerful build" because you're a demigod, whatever, cool.
But the oft cited cutting through mountains with your sword just...I want fantasy, not tall tales.
The change to indomitable is the only good thing and I like Persuasion being an available skill (honestly I think all skills except Religion should be available to fighter).
2. Likewise the prerequisites for some of the masterys effectively eliminate small fighters from getting those.
3. The masterys themselves are ovecomplicated. This is going to be a MUCH higher entry cost to play the game, especilly since what was the simplest class is now one of the most complex. I like the idea of mastery, but it should be one mastery for melee weapons (probably cleave) and one mastery for missile weapons (probably slow) and if you are a fighter of a certain level you can use them both, but only once per attack.
This is going to make using weapons a ton more complicated and take it from what was elegant and simple to something more about rules than story and it will be difficult both for DMs and for inexperienced players.