D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[Chaosmancer]

Many of these suggestions keep hitting on what the Fighter is already great at - dealing and taking damage. They are an A-S tier class in both departments. Weapon mastery offers a significant damage buff and a few more combat options, though nothing too exciting. They need more options outside of combat, though that has to come at a cost - no class can be A-S tier at everything.

I think what limits fighters is that they are really great at these two very important and pretty easily quantifiable things. So they have a very clear role. But they are bottom tier at everything that isn't those roles. This is a significant design problem, because it can play out very differently at different tabletops. If you have a combat-heavy, roleplay-lite table, fighters are amazing. If you have a roleplay-heavy, combat-lite table, fighters suck.

Contrast with, say, a rogue. Rogues are A-S tier at exploration, and probably C-B tier at everything else. Rogues are an easier class to balance; you can tweak a few things, but players at most tables will find opportunities where their rogue can be the star at times.

I argue that increasing damage output or survivability works against making fighters more interesting and flexible - they don't need buffs in those departments. Any improvements should be in areas that make them interesting outside of combat. This is potentially addressed to some degree, by the greater access to feats that fighters currently have, though a lot of players don't really look at feats as a way to broaden the capacities of their fighter outside of combat, but more as a way to double down on what the fighter already does well.

Explain the Paladin and to a lesser extent the Ranger then.

A 20th level Paladin, with the current rule set can rather trivially do the following damage. Utilizing Polearm for consistency with fighter numbers, and since it has always been insisted to account for subclasses, let's make this a devotion paladin. The DEFENSIVE paladin option. Channel Divinity used for +5 to hit

0.85x16x2 = 27.2
0.05x16x2 =1.6
0.85x16 + 0.05x16 =14.4(Cleave)
0.85x13 = 11.05
0.05x13 = 0.65
0.98x4.5 = 4.41 (Charger)
0.98x6 = 5.88 (GWM)
0.85x16 + 0.05x16 = 14.4 (Polearm reaction)
0.98x27 = 26.46 (Divine Smite)
0.6 x 9.5 = 5.7 (Steed's turn)
+11 Aura no save
122.75 damage for the round


And they are just as tough as a fighter (maybe tougher), boost their allies saves, gave an ally ~9.5 temp hp during all this, and have a lot more resources they didn't use. They have spells that allow them to do quite a lot socially, and can reshape the battlefield.

Champion fighter? Same feats and build? I'll even give them Action Surge.

0.6x11.5x8 = 55.2
0.15 x 11.5 x 8= 13.8
0.6x11.5 + 0.15x11.5 = 8.625 (Cleave)
0.6 x 8.5 = 5.1
0.15 x 8.5 = 1.275
0.6x11.5 + 0.15x11.5 = 8.625 (Polearm Reaction)
0.84 x 4.5= 3.78 (Charger)
0.84 x 6 = 5.04 (GWM)

101.45 Damage for the round.

And sure, you can say "but the Paladin used resources" but so did the fighter. I used Action Surge. And I couldn't even match what the paladin did with only a single smite and their capstone. Now, the champion is tougher, most definetly... but they aren't more versatile. They aren't buffing their allies, they can't heal their allies, they don't have the options of a spell list... and they don't do as much damage.

So if the Fighter is S tier damage... what is this paladin? This Paladin that is NOT the best damage dealing paladin. They are the DEFENSIVE paladin? Why can the paladin reach this level, and still have so much, but the fighter is below them and can't have more?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think we should keep both. The justice league did not kick Batman out just because Wonder Woman and Superman could whip him 6 ways to sunday.

Let people play what they want to play. If everyone wants to be superman ok but there should still be a batman option.

If you want your batman option, then level cap your fighters. Let the rest of us have parity.

Sure, the Justice League doesn't kick out the guy who funds their floating space station and is a genius detective (what is the thing the Justice League fights again... crime?) but also there is no player behind Batman. While Batman is only analyzing the dust from Darkseid's boots, there isn't a player watching the other people actually fight the bad guy.

And sure, give me the time Batman yadda yadda'd darksied by bla bla super genius elite plot armor move. Here's the thing. You can do that by being really super smart and clever.... AND have abilities to actually be an equal threat.

Again, I bring back my point from a few pages ago. We have Elminster. We have Mordenkainen. We have Igwilv. All three are insanely powerful casters who take on Demon Lords and Archdevils, who are POWERS in their own right. What fighter in DnD's 50 years of history stands at their shoulders? Give me a name. Let's stop talking Batman and wonder woman and john wick and Aragorn. Give me the strongest fighter in all of DnD's 50 years of literature, the walking legend that level 20 fighters should aspire to be the same way they aspire to be El-"fought through Hell"-Minster and Morden-"my job is multiversal balance"-kainen. Who is the Fighter that Demogorgon respects and fears? The Fighter that Dagon plans around the existence of?

We have five DECADES of lore, surely there has to be at least ONE fighter who is a legend, who is not a god, right?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Apparently

On Sept 15th 3013, Brittany Spears released the song "Work Bitch". Subsequently, the unemployment rates in the US dropped.

I'm impressed she is still singing at that age.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Actually, I wonder about something.

Wouldn't it make sense if the Weapon Mastery just gave you 2 specific Mastery Traits, and you can use those traits on any of their valid weapons? That'd make it a lot more intuitive and flavorful imo. Then during a long rest you can train to use diff traits and swap them out.

So my Fighter is currently trained in Nick and Topple, does a long rest and replaces Nick with Vex.

To me, this is a lot more streamlined and usable then having to pick exact weapons to use their primary traits and then later getting secondary traits for those weapons.

This is my preferred way of doing it too. It just feels like it will flow a lot better.

 

[Azzy]

I'm impressed she is still singing at that age.

Oops.

 

[ChameleonX]

We have five DECADES of lore, surely there has to be at least ONE fighter who is a legend, who is not a god, right?

Probably the closest would be Drizz't or Bruenor. There were others who started off as Fighters, but then took levels in a caster class. So, pretty much proving your point.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I want the Wizard to only shoot a magical bolt that only improves slightly over 20 levels, and make the occasional arcana check. To do more than this would harm my fun and verisimilitude.

No problem at my table, if you insist. Or just take a warlock.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Why are there so many threads insisting that fighters need to basically be Goku at high levels? Like, why fighters particularly? Where are all the threads arguing that rangers, or monks, or rogues, or warlocks, or artificers, or barbarians need super-mega-power boosts? Is it just the fighters that have a particularly vociferous fan base?

Like, the monk thread is all about trying to buff them to be competitive with classes such as the fighter, specifically.

Yeah my focus is on spreading out the fighter's competency more, and making them more interesting without making the base class dramatically more complex.

Fighters and rogues are the only fully non-magical classes, and both are mediocre as a result, but rogues at least have a few extra tricks.

No, they aren't. All classes don't need to be spellcasters to be in the same ballpark of power. Fighters are boring, not underpowered, and rogues are just not mediocre in any way.

I think what limits fighters is that they are really great at these two very important and pretty easily quantifiable things. So they have a very clear role. But they are bottom tier at everything that isn't those roles.

THis is why I want to replace indomitible with the ability to x/day turn a failed ability check or saving throw into a success, and grant the ability earlier.

 

[Incenjucar]

Maybe. Personally I do not think ONE will be as successful as 5E has been. I could be wrong in that prediction and even if I am correct that would not show that the fighter improvements are the reason it is not as successful.

That said, people can debate if parity is a good or bad thing and whether the game would be better or worse with more of it. But that debate aside, the evidence shows pretty clearly that it is not essential for either a fun game or a commercially successful game.

So while parity might improve the game (not something I agree with personally), it is certainly not necessary for the game and that is merely what I was trying to point out.

You could delete the wizard entirely and there would still be plenty of people playing the game. shrug

 

[Vaalingrade]

I think we should keep both. The justice league did not kick Batman out just because Wonder Woman and Superman could whip him 6 ways to sunday.

Let people play what they want to play. If everyone wants to be superman ok but there should still be a batman option.

Batman gets to do things besides sadly attack and maybe jump once or twice..

Batman is nothing like a 5e Fighter in this respect.

Give me a Fighter that can swing around on grappling hooks and do sick takedowns on multiple dudes at once and be competent at mental skills and isn't a literal ninja and maybe the light from the star of 'this is a reasonable point' will reach this argument sometimes within the lifespan of the Sol System.