D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[Neonchameleon]

Batman gets to do things besides sadly attack and maybe jump once or twice..

Batman is nothing like a 5e Fighter in this respect.

Give me a Fighter that can swing around on grappling hooks and do sick takedowns on multiple dudes at once and be competent at mental skills and isn't a literal ninja and maybe the light from the star of 'this is a reasonable point' will reach this argument sometimes within the lifespan of the Sol System.

Bataman isn't a fighter. Batman is a rogue; squishy, can't take much of a direct hit other than on his terms when he can see it coming (he dodges bullets, not face-tanks them), and works from the shadows to find the weak spots.

Wonder Woman is a fighter. Right up on the front lines using strength, speed, and weapons and can take a hit. So for that matter is Superman. (Billy Batson/Shazam and Hulk are both arguably barbarians) Neither of them is a wizard.

 

[WanderingMystic]

While I compleatly believe that martials, fighters specifically, need more power and more utility some of the things you are saying a mage can do in stories is not possible even with a 20th level of. Elemenster is not a PC neither is Mordenkanen and while Rastlin wasn't a pc when he fought Takhisis he wasn't and he also don't turn down Godhood because it would have made him weaker. A fighter of higher enough level should not care about needing a magical weapon, they should be able to easily do aoe attacks (I would say around 7th maybe as early as 5th).

I believe that fighters should get manuvers at 2nd level, that by 11thvlevel they should have those dice refreshing when you role initiative because most manuvers are a thing that any trained fighter should be able to do and by tier 3 should be able to do them all of the time.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Monks have ki, which really should be a martial wide resource it seems, so again, they have the structure needed to improve, and their high level abilities get into the realm of the epic, with their ability to seperate their own soul from their body. They just need to be better.

Most or all Martials should have a resource to spend, and how you differentiate them would be what they can spend it on and how they might get it back in combat.

When I was creating my 5E Revised Fighter, I made a bunch of Martial Maneuvers that could always be used and had a bunch of nice, basic effects largely adapted from 4E At-Wills: Footwork Lure could drag an enemy with you 5 feet, Surging Strike could give you Temp HP equal to your Constitution until your next turn if you hit, Shield Bash allowed you to push someone 5 feet automatically, etc. They could be used in place of any attack you were making except for Opportunity Attacks.

After that, you had Exploits, which were meant to be special moves that spent from your "Martial Focus" pool (Again, stealing Grit from Matt Mercer). Focus could recharge on a critical or killing a foe, or straight up just spending an action, and would automatically recharge in 10 minutes outside of combat. They could spend it on techniques, with some techniques allowing you to spend multiple Focus points to boost them, so you could "Nova" on a big attack or simply upgrade them when facing tougher foes. You could also learn Exploits like spells, but you could only have a few active, so you could prepare different techniques for different situations while also having the ability to find new people who had interesting styles you could then learn and apply.

I chose 3 subclasses: the Champion (Your average fighter who focused on beating stuff up and being a proper defender), the Warlord (Who could fill their Exploits and Maneuvers with "Gambits" and "Tactics" that buffed others, often at the cost of their damage output), and the Eldritch Knight (Who could spellcast and channel magic through martial techniques and weapons).

When I was making it, I felt like it was a good chassis to apply to all the martials: give them some interesting techniques to make their basic attacks varied and interesting, while also giving them a bit of resource spending to give them cool stuff to do. Then, well... I ended up finding Pathfinder 2E when COVID hit because I was looking for ideas and just felt they did what I wanted in a better, more simpler way. But I still think what I was looking at was a smart way to balance martials while still giving them a ton of options.

 

[Chaosmancer]

While I compleatly believe that martials, fighters specifically, need more power and more utility some of the things you are saying a mage can do in stories is not possible even with a 20th level of. Elemenster is not a PC neither is Mordenkanen and while Rastlin wasn't a pc when he fought Takhisis he wasn't and he also don't turn down Godhood because it would have made him weaker. A fighter of higher enough level should not care about needing a magical weapon, they should be able to easily do aoe attacks (I would say around 7th maybe as early as 5th).

I thought I remembered that, but I could be wrong.

However, sure none of those mages are PCs.... but are there NPC fighters that are of this level? Again, without being made into gods. I can't think of any. The highest, pure class, fighters tend to stop around level 12. Even in as DMPC's or villains, you make paladins or Fighter's who have learned magic like Eldritch Knights.

Now, I will say I disagree with you on the level. I think AOE's coming around 11th level is more fair. Because that is the shifting point, that's where we start the journey into mythical lands. And frankly... cleave is a good start to that. My advice for cleave is to let it be an attack against a creature in range. Ranger's got the Whirlwind attack in 5e, but there is no reason fighter's couldn't get it instead.

I believe that fighters should get manuvers at 2nd level, that by 11thvlevel they should have those dice refreshing when you role initiative because most manuvers are a thing that any trained fighter should be able to do and by tier 3 should be able to do them all of the time.

Honestly. I kind of want to have a maneuver system where fighters get combat and non-combat manuevers, working on different resources. Because I like this mechanical difference. Rangers and Paladins get spells. Rogues get Expertise and Reliable Talent for raw number advantage. Barbarians get Primal Knowledge and Indomitable might for specific minimum results on certain skills. And fighter's can have a wide range of skills where they roll a die to increase their results randomly. It doesn't make them the best at skills, but it gives them a capability to specialize. Maybe then a warlord class could allow them to do a little bard and add a roll to an allies skill if they hit certain thresholds.

But I agree that combat maneuvers should eventually just... be a thing they can do.

 

[Chaosmancer]

View attachment 284964

Most or all Martials should have a resource to spend, and how you differentiate them would be what they can spend it on and how they might get it back in combat.

When I was creating my 5E Revised Fighter, I made a bunch of Martial Maneuvers that could always be used and had a bunch of nice, basic effects largely adapted from 4E At-Wills: Footwork Lure could drag an enemy with you 5 feet, Surging Strike could give you Temp HP equal to your Constitution until your next turn if you hit, Shield Bash allowed you to push someone 5 feet automatically, etc. They could be used in place of any attack you were making except for Opportunity Attacks.

After that, you had Exploits, which were meant to be special moves that spent from your "Martial Focus" pool (Again, stealing Grit from Matt Mercer). Focus could recharge on a critical or killing a foe, or straight up just spending an action, and would automatically recharge in 10 minutes outside of combat. They could spend it on techniques, with some techniques allowing you to spend multiple Focus points to boost them, so you could "Nova" on a big attack or simply upgrade them when facing tougher foes. You could also learn Exploits like spells, but you could only have a few active, so you could prepare different techniques for different situations while also having the ability to find new people who had interesting styles you could then learn and apply.

I chose 3 subclasses: the Champion (Your average fighter who focused on beating stuff up and being a proper defender), the Warlord (Who could fill their Exploits and Maneuvers with "Gambits" and "Tactics" that buffed others, often at the cost of their damage output), and the Eldritch Knight (Who could spellcast and channel magic through martial techniques and weapons).

When I was making it, I felt like it was a good chassis to apply to all the martials: give them some interesting techniques to make their basic attacks varied and interesting, while also giving them a bit of resource spending to give them cool stuff to do. Then, well... I ended up finding Pathfinder 2E when COVID hit because I was looking for ideas and just felt they did what I wanted in a better, more simpler way. But I still think what I was looking at was a smart way to balance martials while still giving them a ton of options.

I do like the idea of expanding Grit and having that be the fighter resource. It's rather elegant in its own way.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I do like the idea of expanding Grit and having that be the fighter resource. It's rather elegant in its own way.

It is! It's a nice little pool that isn't big, but can recharge quickly. Recharging on a kill means that when you are high level, you can basically nova through a bunch of little minions in the same way a higher-level wizard might mop up a bunch with a huge AoE.

I think my big add was spending an Action to get half proficiency in Focus, rounding down: spending an action in combat in 5E is a big ask, so I wanted it to be worth it. I also had stances in there, too. Again, really funny when I found PF2 and they had basically done in 2019 what I was mapping out in 2018.

 

[ECMO3]

I will give you Erivis Cale, I actually forgot he was a Cleric.

You asked about fighterss who have done epic things like Elminster and Mordenkainen. I gave you six (not including Cale in that because I did not remember he became a cleric of Mask before becoming epic).

Caramon Majere? Official material has him as level 9

Do some research. Caramon is 12th level in the DL15 Dragons of Triumph adventure and that is before he goes back to Istar, becomes a legendary Gladiator, fights in the Dwarfgate Wars, goes into the Abyss etc.

Yeah at certain points all of those characters were low level. Raistlan had like 7 hps in DL1. But they are the characters I mentioned are legendary at the end of their careers.

Drizz'zt do'Urden? Ranger6 Fighter8 Rogue2 Dervish1 Barbarian1. All martial characters at least.

Fought Demogorgon and and the Ghost King and beat both of them.

Also if you want to start using classes Elminster is not a Wizard either. In 4E he is a controller, in 3E he has like 5 classes. Same with Tasha.

I noticed how you did not even try to address the others I mentioned .... wonder why?

 

[Justice and Rule]

I noticed how you did not even try to address the others I mentioned .... wonder why?

I mean, no one counts Abdel Adrian because that's just the main character of Baldur's Gate and in theory they could have been anything. Mine was a Paladin. Ticklvarr and Balthazar are a Wizard and a Barbarian. The characters people remember from that series are Minsc (a raging Ranger), Imoen (A Thief/Wizard multiclass), Edwin (A Red Wizard), and maybe a few other oddballs. But the only reason I remember him is largely because everyone hated his character in the books. I was honestly surprised they used him in that D&DNext Adventure.

I had to look up Havilar, but are they honestly at the level of the archmages noted? I had never heard of her before, so I'm not sure what makes them so impressive.

 

[ECMO3]

Drizz't beat Demogorgon? Hmm, that didn't show up before.
Does Research

Wow.... WOW.... talk about cherry-picking. To quote " Drizzt Do'Urden defeated Demogorgon in Menzoberranzan by acting as a conduit for a barrage of magical energy, released upon him and held by the kinetic barrier of an illithid hive-mind.

You asked about fighterss who have done epic things like Elminster and Mordenkainen. I gave you six (not including Cale in that becuase I did not remember he was a cleric of Mask).

Semantics. You asked for Legendary fighters I gave them to you and he was THE CHAMPION of Menxobarrenzen when he did that.

Meanwhile, Raistlin solo's an aspect of Takhisis, a CR 30 aspect of a God.

Totally comparable.

And Raistlan is held in the Abyss by his brother Caramon

As for the Ghost King... well, according to the wiki, that's just a flat lie. Again, quoting the wiki

Read the book, it is not a lie.

Drizzt goes inside him, kills him from the inside on Ferun and banishes him back to the shadowfell, where Cadderly then goes to build a wall around him. Gods, Devils etc don't really die when they are killed. Even when they are killed once and for all they usually still do not stay dead. Drizzt defeated the Ghost King on Feerun

I will also note the vast majority of Elminster and Raistlans efforts are team efforts as well

Kelemvor became a god, multiple wizards have turned down godhood because it would make them too weak. (Raistlin famously)

Raistlan did not turn down Godhood because it would make him weak he turned it down because his brother faced him at the door back to the world, convinced him he would wreak havoc and destroy everything if he came back into it and would have killed him if he tried to come back through.

Point being Kelemvor is a fighter and a God. Also I believe before he became a God Kelemvor took part in actually killing a god who was on Ferun. It was a long time ago since I read that novel though so i may be remembering that part wrong.

So, out of your seven I've already discussed in this post and others four of them, and I've shown that you have flat out been wrong about multiple feats. But let's look at Caramon Majere.... and I can't find a single notable fight for him. He doesn't even seem to kill a dragon in the entire saga. So, sure, he's famous, but looking around he's only supposed to be 12th level, so even if he did have some amazing fight to show how awesome he is... a 20th level fighter should be better.

As I said in my other post he was 12th level less than halfway through his adventuring career.

More over it is about accomplishments. You gushed about Tasha, can you give me an example of an epic battle for her? Or while I am at it Raistlan?

Oh my good frickin lord. Abdel Adrian IS LEVEL 3, MAYBE LEVEL 4!!!! You put a level 4 fighter down as an example of what a 20th level fighter should be!! And he is a Bhallspawn with magical powers!!!!

He defeats Bhaal and he is a fighter.

The problem with using levels is all of these people were level 1 at one time, So yes Adrian was at a time level 4, probably about the time he traveled to Cloakwood during the Iron Crisis. When he went to the Throne of Bhaal he would have been I believe 32nd level. I base that on the video game where this would have happened at 8 million xp (which would be around 32nd level in 2E). In the start of the Seige of Saradush the minimum level you can be as a fighter is level 8 I think.

So what he has magical powers, so do most 5E fighters either through a subclass, race or feat. Heck any High Elf has magical powers are we going to start excluding them from fighter comparisons?

You just listed well known fighters. That's all you did here, isn't it.

I listed fighters who all did epic things.

Just to complete the list, Havilar's greatest feat.... killing a Mummy. And she didn't even do it, her sister did it with magic by blowing up a volcano. Havilar was defeated by a Succubus.

Havilar is part of a plot to kill Asmodeus (you know an actual Arch Devil), one which does not suceed in killing him but does wrench Azuth's essence from him, making no longer a God.

Yeah, sure was easy to list all these people who AREN'T on the level of "personally fought an Archdevil to a standstill". T\

So give me an example of when Tasha did this.

 

[ECMO3]

I mean, no one counts Abdel Adrian because that's just the main character of Baldur's Gate and in theory they could have been anything

I was talking about the character in the Novels the game is based on. That character is a fighter.