D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[Shardstone]

Achilles wounded Ares.

 

[Bluenose]

Achilles wounded Ares.

So does Diomedes (and he also hits Aphrodite and tries to hit Apollo).

There's other examples, the Kojiki from Japan has various legendary emperors defeating various gods and some Pacific Islander (both Polynesian and Melanesian but not the same stories everywhere) have tales of mortals fighting. defeating and even killing gods.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Kratos is a bad example for this topic tho.
Beside he is demigod at first, in beginning of first game he is blessed(cursed) with Blades of Chaos. At end of it he use power of Hope to defeat Ares and ascend to god of war. Even in next game he lost his god power due to Zeus's scheme, he got aid from Titans.
After he massacre whole greek pantheon, destroy Greek, and lost most of his god power. He still has his super strength and regeneration. He admitted to his son that his strength isn't from his muscles but his remain god power.

Is he master of martial power? Of course he is, he use his skill to overcome other god. But he also has an arsenal of artifact level weapons and god strength enough to choke another god to death.

You know, I would agree with you, but also.... well, did you look at the list of "epic" fighters I was given?

1) A Bhaalspawn who is born with a shard of a god in them

2) A man who was the Chosen of a God and imbued with its power and then got a shard of divinity from another god

3) A man who used a god to kill a god and then became a god

4) Wasn't Drizz'zt the Champion of Eilistraee at some point? I might be misremembering if he was just pious or given powers by that.

5) Another chosen of a god, though I didn't look into that one.

So, out of eight of them, five were connected to god powers. Which is strange since we are constantly being told that we can't use demigods as examples, then are given demigods as examples from the source material.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So does Diomedes (and he also hits Aphrodite and tries to hit Apollo).

There's other examples, the Kojiki from Japan has various legendary emperors defeating various gods and some Pacific Islander (both Polynesian and Melanesian but not the same stories everywhere) have tales of mortals fighting. defeating and even killing gods.

Yep, it is actually not that uncommon in various myths to have great heroes compete on equal terms with "gods" (quotes because the term god is a slightly inaccurate translation for Kami and Atua )

 

[ECMO3]

Semantics? No that is not "semantics". He didn't win because he was that good of a fighter. He won because an illithid hive-mind held down Demogorgon while Drizz'zt acted as a glorified lightning rod. That speaks nothing to his skill as a fighter.

He was chosen by Ivonnel (and by extention Lolth) explicitly because he was that good of a fighter. No one else, including the Archmage Gromph, or Ivonnel herself, two of the most powerful Wizards on Ferun in that era.

No? Unless you are talking about a video game where TAkhisis holds Raistlan in the Abyss, this is what happens "Caramon confronts Raistlin with his experience of the future and Raistlin's solitary, meaningless existence. After dragging the memory from Caramon's experience of the future, Raistlin was convinced of what Caramon warned. Raistlin tells his twin to take Crysania back to Krynn and gives up his life preventing Takhisis from passing through the portal."

Caramon stops Raistlan from reentering the world and destroying it. That is epic. That he does it without swinging a sword is immaterial.

So, Cadderly defeats the Ghost King, the Ghost King comes back, eats Drizz't who kills him from the inside, and then Cadderly goes to finish him off? This is a really suspect feat, and I'm not reading an entire trilogy just to try and find it. Especially since Drizz'zt is explicitly unable to even reach the Ghost King in the first fight, to again quote

No he does not eat Drizzt. He is a lich and Drizzt goes inside him through his bones and attacks him from the inside.

Also what about Bruener Battlehammer who defeated Lolth's retriever by using a juicer and pushing him into a Volcano. Before this happens the book states that nothing short of a God can kill it. He also beats the Demon Errtu and a senior level Pit Fiend (the latter 1 on one). I mentioned him originally and you apparantly forgot to go and figure out a way to disqualify him.

Would have attempted to kill him. There is no way Caramon could have actually done it. Especially since it becomes clear in reading the summary that Raistlin was convinced by the memories, not cowed by his brother's thews.

Guile and Wit still count.

She captured Graz'zt, then after she was weakened by Tsojcanth he broke free and fought her. She barely killed his earthly vessel and banished him (again, while weakened).

Captured and defeating in combat are not the same thing remember. Also as I recall you have it backwards. Grazzt captured her and dragged her to the Abyss

Finally most of Tasha's power over demons came from a book, not her powers and any power she had over Grizzt's came from the fact she seduced him.

And I will also note that Tasha, aside from her class powers also has other powers as well from her ties to Baba Yaga and the Feywild .... you know the kind of "extra powers" you used to disqualify Abdel Adrian.

When did she beat a Arch Devil in an epic combat?

For that matter when did Elminster or Mordenkainen.

No, I don't want to discount magical powers. That's why I didn't comment on Cale being a Shade, but being a Bhaalspawn is a little different. Bhaalspawn are shards of Bhaal. And, additionally, here's a source listing some of his powers

And Raistlan was a shard of both Fistandantilis and Takhisis and Elmister is an avatar of Mystra. Double standard here.

"part of a plot"? That is so intentional vague, especially since her spellcasting sister is the main character of the series. How much do I want to bet that it is Farideh the Warlock and Chosen of Asmodeus who is explicitly mentioned as saving Asmodeus who is the one who actually does this and Havilar is a "was also there"

It is vague because I don't remember the exact details about what happened on the Ziggurat in Tymanthor and I read the book like 5 years ago. Rest assured it was epic and caused Asmodeus to lose Godhood and if I remeber correctly also resulted in the death of Brysis Kristos who was a God or Demigod (second death of course). Havilar also died but was resurected.

 

[Chaosmancer]

He was chosen by Ivonnel (and by extention Lolth) explicitly because he was that good of a fighter. No one else, including the Archmage Gromph, or Ivonnel herself, two of the most powerful Wizards on Ferun in that era.

So what about being a good fighter is reflected in working with an illithid hive-mind and being a conduit for magic? If he was "that good" of a fighter, why couldn't he win by being a fighter. Or, if being a conduit for magic is the ONLY way that you can be an epic level fighter, why isn't that reflected in the class

Caramon stops Raistlan from reentering the world and destroying it. That is epic. That he does it without swinging a sword is immaterial.

No it isn't immaterial!! Good Lord man, a level 0 commoner could be "epic" then as long as they had a heartfelt moment with a powerful sibling. Caramon's class is completely immaterial to a brotherly moment. The entire point is to find Fighter's who can be what players aspire towards 20th level to emulate. It isn't 20th level to go "and then he hugged his brother".

Is it a touching and heartfelt moment of familial and brotherly love, showing that the bonds of family can save the world? Absolutely. Does it have anything at all to do with being an epic level character? Not in the slightest.

No he does not eat Drizzt. He is a lich and Drizzt goes inside him through his bones and attacks him from the inside.

Okay, again, is this the second time after Cadderly defeats him the first time? You seem more concerned with specifying how Drizz't ends up inside the Dracolich than the order of events here. Heck, was the ghost King even at full power after remanifesting from being blown to bits by the hyper-priest?

Also, again, where is the skill involved in "I'll hit him from the INSIDE"

Also what about Bruener Battlehammer who defeated Lolth's retriever by using a juicer and pushing him into a Volcano. Before this happens the book states that nothing short of a God can kill it. He also beats the Demon Errtu and a senior level Pit Fiend (the latter 1 on one). I mentioned him originally and you apparantly forgot to go and figure out a way to disqualify him.

Ah yes, I forgot about the 18th level fighter ability "Throw them in a Volcano" which allows all fghters to summon a volcano to throw their enemies into. Also, he used a juicer so... basically a giant hydraulic press? Not say... his skill with a hammer and shield?

As for why I didn't talk much about Bruenor, that's because I talked about him in an earlier post. The problem is that every single fight Bruenor was listed in, he was fighting with a group of other people. You mention the Pit Fiend, but, well, again... maybe this is just wiki summarizing but it says that he died against that Pit fiend, alongside his companion Thibbledorf Pwent, another mid-level fighter. Meanwhile, him and his companions triumphed over the Balor.

So, it is difficult to say how much of this is Bruenor's Skill in combat and how much is the strength of his companions. He defeats one powerful fiend without dying, but dies in the process of defeating another (and it was initially unclear if he defeated Beealtimatuche from the summary) And actually, checking in on Beealtimatuche's page. He was summoned to fight Bruenor AND Drizz't. So we have at least three fighters in this mix right now.

You'll also notice I said "another mid-level fighter". Care to take a guess at Bruenor's level? Level 13. So even if we were to give him all the accolades... a 20th level fighter should still be significantly stronger.

Guile and Wit still count.

Too bad "guile and wit" aren't class abilities. Seriously, again, guile and wit are something that any character can have. If all it takes is coming up with a clever plan, then your level doesn't matter. Elminster has guile and wit, and the ability to blow you up with meteors or stop time or teleport to other dimensions.

"This character did something clever" =/= "This character is 20th level"

Captured and defeating in combat are not the same thing remember. Also as I recall you have it backwards. Grazzt captured her and dragged her to the Abyss

Finally most of Tasha's power over demons came from a book, not her powers and any power she had over Grizzt's came from the fact she seduced him.

And I will also note that Tasha, aside from her class powers also has other powers as well from her ties to Baba Yaga and the Feywild .... you know the kind of "extra powers" you used to disqualify Abdel Adrian.

When did she beat a Arch Devil in an epic combat?

For that matter when did Elminster or Mordenkainen.

You recall incorrectly.

Tasha summoned Grazz'zt and bound him. She was injured, fought Grazz'zt when he broke free, and destroyed his corporeal self, sending him back to the Abyss. Later, she tried to summon and bind him again, but he laid a trap that pulled her to the Abyss and bound her. Where she was later freed, and fought him to a stalemate. I mentioned the capture for context, defeating him while injured the first time IS defeating him in combat.

Additionally, that book? She made it. And aren't fighter's always getting magical items? Isn't like, half of Drizz'zt speed from magical bracers? Bracers he was given/found, not bracers he made through study and arcane power? So, yeah, since she made the Demonicon, I count that as hers.

As for Baba Yaga, pay attention to the story. She was raised and taught magic by Baba Yaga. She didn't gain any powers from her. She is a Wizard by class, not a warlock. Her ties to the Fey Wild and her ascension to an Archfey? All AFTER her second fight with Grazz't. So, yeah, I didn't count those because I'm talking about before that was a thing. So, there is nothing to discount unless you add more to the story than is there. Nothing in her history suggests she was given power by Baba Yaga, just training.

And Raistlan was a shard of both Fistandantilis and Takhisis and Elmister is an avatar of Mystra. Double standard here.

I thought Elminster turned down being an Avatar of Mystra? Looking through some history, it does seem he has been a Chosen of hers since the beginning. My bad. That is one of the big four who is disqualified due to having god-juice.

And I had no idea that Raistlin was a shard, I thought he was a mortal. does more research

So... less of a double standard here. Fistandantilis? He was a mortal wizard, used an artifact to gain immortality, and tried to rise to godhood but failed and was destroyed. Sure, Raistlin makes a deal with him and absorbs him into his body, but he absorbed the knowledge of wizardry, not any god-like power.

As for him being a shard of Takhisis... I can't find any source that supports that. So, citation needed?

It is vague because I don't remember the exact details about what happened on the Ziggurat in Tymanthor and I read the book like 5 years ago. Rest assured it was epic and caused Asmodeus to lose Godhood and if I remeber correctly also resulted in the death of Brysis Kristos who was a God or Demigod (second death of course). Havilar also died but was resurected.

So for all we know, her contribution was jumping in front of a spell and dying while her sister did the actual task. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a 20th level fighter. Which she probably wasn't since, again, we know for a fact she was defeated by a succubus and sent to kill her allies, who were able to break the enchantment on her.

Again, you seem to be mixing "this was so cool to read" with "this is an epic level character". It would be really cool to read a story of a plucky squire taking down a troll. But killing a troll isn't exactly something that should be difficult for a level 20 character.

 

[HammerMan]

Are you kidding me? Fighters are WAY more common than any caster right now.

Some time we may get to where most people want to play full casters, but we are not close to being there yet.

Most of the game is casters we have less then 1/3 the classes that don’t have magic and those classes have subclasses to add magic

 

[Incenjucar]

Only base fighters and rogues are 100% non-magical on 1D&D so far. Monks have a spell and barbarians funnel primal energy.

 

[Pauln6]

Started a brief playtest yesterday and pleasantly surprised at how a mixed group of fighters is suddenly thinking tactics.

One shortcoming - does anyone else think fighters should get to dodge as a bonus action when leaving a threatened square as a sort of fighting withdrawal? Disengage really seems to punish the fighter concept.

Or maybe tweaked class feature at level 5 so you can spend one of your attacks to disengage.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Started a brief playtest yesterday and pleasantly surprised at how a mixed group of fighters is suddenly thinking tactics.

One shortcoming - does anyone else think fighters should get to dodge as a bonus action when leaving a threatened square as a sort of fighting withdrawal? Disengage really seems to punish the fighter concept.

Or maybe tweaked class feature at level 5 so you can spend one of your attacks to disengage.

Huh... I feel like there should be some option, but most of the ones I'm thinking of encroach on the rogue concept.

Bonus action Dodge is too powerful. Spend an attack to disengage too rogue-like...

How about an ability that says something to the effect of "If you have made an attack this turn, attacks of opportunity have disadvantage against you". This is effectively a dodge against attacks of opportunity only, but it doesn't do anything for the fighter who is just running through the enemy. They have to have made an attack, then they get the bonus.