D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[ECMO3]

god, you are adamant to not acknowledge what he meant, huh?

I am going by what he said.

no, you do it once per fight at most.

No you up to twice per fight at most .... and up to 8 times a day ... at most.

or. you know. they just...stand up on their turn and act normally (barring losing half their movement, but a lot of the time that won't matter anyway).

A lot of times it will matter. I am not suggesting it will always matter and I stated that above, but a lot of times a couple more attacks with action surge won't matter either.

the problem is that you are still not understanding what you are addressing. you keep saying "oh you can prone these people at level 20" when that's not all he's describing.

"pushing away and knocking prone a bunch of mooks" is EXACTLY that in the rules. Shoving someone back IS pushing them back. Shoving someone prone IS knocking them prone.

That is what I am describing.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I was talking about the character in the Novels the game is based on. That character is a fighter.

Yeah, and no one knows or cares who that is. It's a novel series based on a game. No offense, but no one cares if he was a fighter in that because no one thinks of the character from the novel. Again, if you had said Minsc, maybe you could make an argument. But Abdel Adrian is not a character as much as he is a placeholder. How appropriate that he is the DND Class equivalent of a placeholder as well.

I think the bigger point is that you are really trying to dance around the issue through semantics: the point is that fighters don't get to be epic in the same way wizards get to be. Your example of Drizz't is not Drizz't using his own power, but channeling that of a greater one. You talk about Caramon, but he doesn't stop Raistlin through power, at least from I can find. Instead, he convinces him to not do what he wants to do through his brotherly ties. You try to say that Elminster has 5 classes, but that ignores that he has 29 levels of Wizard/Archmage. You call him a "controller" in 4E instead of a Wizard, but that's because he's stat'd up as an enemy. That's just meaningless pedantry trying to avoid the point.

The entire point is that powerful mages headline books and get guest spots: Mordenkainen has one book, another on its way, and a big guest appearance in an adventure. Tasha gets a book for herself. Fizban gets a book. Elminster is basically the person of the Forgotten Realms.

Who is that for fighters?

See, there really isn't someone like that. You named Abdel Adrian, but the only time I can think of him being used is in an unflattering bit part at the start of a D&DN adventure. There is no legendary fighter who travels around and impacts the Realms. The closest is Drizz't, but he's not in the same league as Elminster. And that's part of the problem here: going by the game, he shouldn't be, but there's very little fun in that. If you want martials to be able to do that, you need to give them the ability to reach the same sorts of heights as a mage. I would love to see a Minsc's Book of Butt-Kicking for Goodness, but who the hell would buy a book based around a bunch of classes that are meant to largely be inferior to magic-using ones?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I will give you Erivis Cale, I actually forgot he was a Cleric.

You asked about fighterss who have done epic things like Elminster and Mordenkainen. I gave you six (not including Cale in that because I did not remember he became a cleric of Mask before becoming epic).

No. I did not ask about fighters who had "done epic things" I asked for fighter who ARE epic. It would be an incredibly epic thing to flip off a dragon before dropping a match and exploding a city packed with gunpowder. It could also be done by any commoner with enough foresight. I wanted fighters who ARE epic legends.

And if you check back at my post... Cale was your best example.

Do some research. Caramon is 12th level in the DL15 Dragons of Triumph adventure and that is before he goes back to Istar, becomes a legendary Gladiator, fights in the Dwarfgate Wars, goes into the Abyss etc.

I did do my research. I mention him at both level 12 and at level nine. But here's the point, after doing research... I can't figure out who he even fought. What was the greatest enemy he took down single handed? Okay, he went to the Abyss, what did he DO there? Because Mordenkainen day trips to the Abyss on a regular basis, so there is a bit of a difference between going to the Abyss and scurrying and running for your life, and going to the Abyss and being a THREAT to the things there.

Fought Demogorgon and and the Ghost King and beat both of them.

Also if you want to start using classes Elminster is not a Wizard either. In 4E he is a controller, in 3E he has like 5 classes. Same with Tasha.

I noticed how you did not even try to address the others I mentioned .... wonder why?

Because they were in my other post that you clearly skipped if you want to keep trying to claim Drizz'zt beat the Ghost King or Demogorgon.

Semantics. You asked for Legendary fighters I gave them to you and he was THE CHAMPION of Menxobarrenzen when he did that.

Semantics? No that is not "semantics". He didn't win because he was that good of a fighter. He won because an illithid hive-mind held down Demogorgon while Drizz'zt acted as a glorified lightning rod. That speaks nothing to his skill as a fighter.

And who cares if he was champion of Menxobarrenzen? Do you think Asmodeus is quivering in his boots if he is told the champion of a drow city is coming to face him? Maybe you need to review the level limits and how they break down.

Levels 1-4 "Local Heroes"
Level 5- 10 "Heroes of the Realm"
Levels 11 - 16 "Masters of the Realm" -> This is where I'd expect the "Champion" of a major place like Menxobarrenzen to be

Levels 17 - 20 "Masters of the World" -> THIS where you are a threat to multiversal forces, is where I'm talking about. This is an entire tier of play higher.

And Raistlan is held in the Abyss by his brother Caramon

No? Unless you are talking about a video game where TAkhisis holds Raistlan in the Abyss, this is what happens "Caramon confronts Raistlin with his experience of the future and Raistlin's solitary, meaningless existence. After dragging the memory from Caramon's experience of the future, Raistlin was convinced of what Caramon warned. Raistlin tells his twin to take Crysania back to Krynn and gives up his life preventing Takhisis from passing through the portal."

This is the end of the Test of the Twins, where Caramon goes to the future where "it is revealed that Raistlin was successful in defeating Takhisis and has gone on to destroy the other gods and all life on Krynn."

Read the book, it is not a lie.

Drizzt goes inside him, kills him from the inside on Ferun and banishes him back to the shadowfell, where Cadderly then goes to build a wall around him. Gods, Devils etc don't really die when they are killed. Even when they are killed once and for all they usually still do not stay dead. Drizzt defeated the Ghost King on Feerun

Was that before or after Cadderly defeats him on Faerun? I quoted it once, but I'll quote it again.

"Seeing his [Cadderly's] wife and some friends in danger, his need to act called out and something answered. Reciting off unknown spells, he creates a flying horse and carriage out of a cloud and rides down to rescue the fighters below displaying godlike power in the form of potent and great unknown spells.

The Ghost King is defeated but escapes to the Shadowfell, where he recovers rapidly. He returns and is defeated a second time, disappearing to the Shadowfell again. Cadderly uses Catti-brie as a conduit to enter the Shadowfell to finish off the Ghost King. In the end, Cadderly defeats the Ghost King at the cost of his life and becomes the new Ghost King, forever reinforcing and guarding the ward containing the rift left by the old Ghost King."

So, Cadderly defeats the Ghost King, the Ghost King comes back, eats Drizz't who kills him from the inside, and then Cadderly goes to finish him off? This is a really suspect feat, and I'm not reading an entire trilogy just to try and find it. Especially since Drizz'zt is explicitly unable to even reach the Ghost King in the first fight, to again quote

"They attempt to press through with the unconscious Catti-brie on a wagon but not even a fierce charge by the dwarven heroes followed by the speed of the drow could break through the unstoppable tide."

Raistlan did not turn down Godhood because it would make him weak he turned it down because his brother faced him at the door back to the world, convinced him he would wreak havoc and destroy everything if he came back into it and would have killed him if he tried to come back through.

Would have attempted to kill him. There is no way Caramon could have actually done it. Especially since it becomes clear in reading the summary that Raistlin was convinced by the memories, not cowed by his brother's thews.

Point being Kelemvor is a fighter and a God. Also I believe before he became a God Kelemvor took part in actually killing a god who was on Ferun. It was a long time ago since I read that novel though so i may be remembering that part wrong.

And I still asked for epic fighters who were not Gods. Especially since the kiling of Cyric involved a weapon that was secretly Mask, another God. Killing a god with a god isn't exactly very difficult.

As I said in my other post he was 12th level less than halfway through his adventuring career.

More over it is about accomplishments. You gushed about Tasha, can you give me an example of an epic battle for her? Or while I am at it Raistlan?

Sure, easy enough for Tasha.

She captured Graz'zt, then after she was weakened by Tsojcanth he broke free and fought her. She barely killed his earthly vessel and banished him (again, while weakened). Then later, while she was his "queen" and prisoner in the Argent Palace, she was freed by Tuerny the Merciless and fought Graz'zt to a standstill throughout the palace, while killing many of his "favored servants". Eventually they called a truce and he had her things taken from the palace.

Raistlan, in the future Caramon was trying to prevent, kills the Queen of Evil, one of the two most powerful gods of his realm, then every other god in existence, and leaves behind a world without life.


So, that is two wizard characters who are fighting on equal footing to gods and god-like entities. The closest you have to this is Driz'zt acting as a magical lightning rod with the assistance of an Illithid Hive Mind to banish Demogorgon. Think he could have done that in the heart of Demogorgon's power like Tasha did Graz'zt?

He defeats Bhaal and he is a fighter.

The problem with using levels is all of these people were level 1 at one time, So yes Adrian was at a time level 4, probably about the time he traveled to Cloakwood during the Iron Crisis. When he went to the Throne of Bhaal he would have been I believe 32nd level. I base that on the video game where this would have happened at 8 million xp (which would be around 32nd level in 2E). In the start of the Seige of Saradush the minimum level you can be as a fighter is level 8 I think.

So what he has magical powers, so do most 5E fighters either through a subclass, race or feat. Heck any High Elf has magical powers are we going to start excluding them from fighter comparisons?

No, I don't want to discount magical powers. That's why I didn't comment on Cale being a Shade, but being a Bhaalspawn is a little different. Bhaalspawn are shards of Bhaal. And, additionally, here's a source listing some of his powers

"His Bhaalspawn blood also gave him certain special abilities that allowed him to prevail even when he was otherwise outmatched in combat...he noticed his injuries healing at a rapid rate. This regeneration soon became veritably troll-like, so that even when he broke his spine it healed within moments. He also became able to draw on his divine blood in combat to defeat powerful creatures his mercenary's skill in battle was no match against. Eventually, he gained invulnerability to normal weapons."

Troll regeneration. Immunity to weapon damage. And, oh yeah, it SPECIFICALLY cites that he called on his divine blood to win in fights he was out-matched in. So it was literally a power that helped him win when his skills as a fighter were not sufficient.

Additionally, a Bhaalspawn killing Bhaal isn't that impressive. The Bhaalspawn were literal pieces of Bhaal, meant to be collected and used to bring back Bhaal. Some of them even became literal avatars of Bhaal. So one of them killing Bhaal is essentially Bhaal fighting and killing himself.

I listed fighters who all did epic things.

Which wasn't what was asked.

Havilar is part of a plot to kill Asmodeus (you know an actual Arch Devil), one which does not suceed in killing him but does wrench Azuth's essence from him, making no longer a God.

"part of a plot"? That is so intentional vague, especially since her spellcasting sister is the main character of the series. How much do I want to bet that it is Farideh the Warlock and Chosen of Asmodeus who is explicitly mentioned as saving Asmodeus who is the one who actually does this and Havilar is a "was also there"

Was her "part of the plot" just to carry the heavy things for her sister? Or did it involve fighting someone notable?

So give me an example of when Tasha did this.

Argent Palace when she fought Graz'zt to a standstill after being freed. Done.

 

[Justice and Rule]

To be more on-topic: I think the problem with the Fighter here is not just their lack of interesting power, but also a lack of role. The Barbarian at least has some style and feel to it, but the Fighter is just generic as heck. It gets more attacks, but it doesn't get interesting things to do with those attacks. It also doesn't really give it a defined role, either. To go over them:

Barbarian: Can tank tons of damage through rage, has abilities that play off that (Can become more vulnerable to being hit to become more accurate, gains immunities through rage, etc)
Rogue: Skill monkey who can cause immense targeted damage and can use their mobility to avoid getting hit, tons of flavor abilities.
Monk: Insane mobility and can do wild things with the action economy, can toss out more attacks than a Fighter consistently until the Fighter gets 4 attacks, has less health but has great defense and saves, along with tons of flavor.
Paladin: Is a partial spellcaster, has nova damage abilities that can exploit vulnerabilities if chosen properly, gains multiple immunities and can buff the party through their aura, tons of flavor.
Ranger: Uh... well, this is also a problematic class in my opinion, but I suppose they have some outdoorsy ribbons as well as some single-target damage buffs.

The Fighter is a bog-simple class that just gets exceeded by other classes very easily when you put in the effort. Their biggest powers are better as multi-class dips, and their most notable powers (more attacks) comes incredibly late. I put the 4th attack at level 15 and honestly I was probably being way too harsh on that. If I were to do continue doing work today, I'd probably consider going 4th/9th/13th for their extra attacks so that the Fighter at least gets them faster than others.

If WotC were smart, they'd finally acknowledge that the "Simple Fighter" is a failure largely because there is already a simple martial class: the Barbarian. Instead, the Fighter should be a smarter, more technical class that uses maneuvers and skills to succeed and match other classes. Not necessarily an "advanced" class, but there really should be a complex martial class and I don't see why it shouldn't be the Fighter.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Going back and reading the tiers.... gods above and below, it is so obvious there is a bias. Just look at these.

Levels 1-4: Local Heroes

Characters in this tier are still learning the range of class features that define them, including their choice of specialization. But even 1st-level characters are heroes, set apart from the common people by natural characteristics, learned skills, and the hint of a greater destiny that lies before them.

At the start of their careers, characters use 1st- and 2nd-level spells and wield mundane gear. The magic items they find include common consumable items (potions and scrolls) and a very few uncommon permanent items. Their magic can have a big impact in a single encounter, but it doesn't change the course of an adventure.

The fate of a village might hang on the success or failure of low-level adventurers, who trust their lives to their fledgling abilities. These characters navigate dangerous terrain and explore haunted crypts, where they can expect to fight savage orcs, ferocious wolves, giant spiders, evil cultists, bloodthirsty ghouls, and hired thugs. If they face even a young dragon, they're better off avoiding a fight.

Levels 5-10: Heroes of the Realm

By the time they reach this tier, adventurers have mastered the basics of their class features, though they continue to improve throughout these levels. They have found their place in the world and have begun to involve themselves in the dangers that surround them.

Dedicated spellcasters learn 3rd-level spells at the start of this tier. Suddenly characters can fly, damage large numbers of foes with fireball and lightning bolt spells, and even breathe underwater. They master 5th-level spells by the end of the tier, and spells such as teleportation circle, scrying, flame strike, legend lore, and raise dead can have a significant impact on their adventures. They start acquiring more permanent magic items (uncommon and rare ones) as well, which will serve them for the rest of their careers.

The fate of a region might depend on the adventures that characters of levels 5 to 10 undertake. These adventurers venture into fearsome wilds and ancient ruins, where they confront savage giants, ferocious hydras, fearless golems, evil yuan-ti, scheming devils, bloodthirsty demons, crafty mind flayers, and drow assassins. They might have a chance of defeating a young dragon that has established a lair but not yet extended its reach far into the surrounding territory.

Levels 11-16: Masters of the Realm

By 11th level, characters are shining examples of courage and determination-true paragons in the world, set well apart from the masses. At this tier, adventurers are far more versatile than they were at lower levels, and they can usually find the right tool for a given challenge.

Dedicated spellcasters gain access to 6th-level spells at 11th level, including spells that completely change the way adventurers interact with the world. Their big, flashy spells are significant in combat-disintegrate, blade barrier, and heal, for example-but behind-the-scenes spells such as word of recall, find the path, contingency, teleport, and true seeing alter the way players approach their adventures. Each spell level after that point introduces new effects with an equally large impact. The adventurers find rare magic items (and very rare ones) that bestow similarly powerful abilities.

The fate of a nation or even the world depends on momentous quests that such characters undertake. Adventurers explore uncharted regions and delve into long-forgotten dungeons, where they confront terrible masterminds of the lower planes, cunning rakshasas and beholders, and hungry purple worms. They might encounter and even defeat a powerful adult dragon that has established a lair and a significant presence in the world.

At this tier, adventurers make their mark on the world in a variety of ways, from the consequences of their adventures to the manner in which they spend their hard-won treasure and exploit their well-deserved reputations. Characters of this level construct fortresses on land deeded them by local rulers. They found guilds, temples, or martial orders. They take on apprentices or students of their own. They broker peace between nations or lead them into war. And their formidable reputations attract the attention of very powerful foes.

Levels 17-20: Masters of the World

By 17th level, characters have super heroic capabilities, and their deeds and adventures are the stuff of legend. Ordinary people can hardly dream of such heights of power-or such terrible dangers.

Dedicated spellcasters at this tier wield earthshaking 9th-level spells such as wish, gate, storm of vengeance, and astral projection. Characters have several rare and very rare magic items at their disposal, and begin discovering legendary items such as a vorpal sword or a staff of the magi.

Adventures at these levels have far-reaching consequences, possibly determining the fate of millions in the Material Plane and even places beyond. Characters traverse otherworldly realms and explore demiplanes and other extraplanar locales, where they fight savage balor demons, titans, archdevils, lich archmages, and even avatars of the gods themselves. The dragons they encounter are wyrms of tremendous power, whose sleep troubles kingdoms and whose waking threatens existence itself.

Characters who reach 20th level have attained the pinnacle of mortal achievement. Their deeds are recorded in the annals of history and recounted by bards for centuries. Their ultimate destinies come to pass. A cleric might be taken up into the heavens to serve as a god's right hand. A warlock could become a patron to other warlocks. Perhaps a wizard unlocks the secret to immortality (or undeath) and spends eons exploring the farthest reaches of the multiverse. A druid might become one with the land, transforming into a nature spirit of a particular place or an aspect of the wild. Other characters could found clans or dynasties that revere the memory of their honored ancestors from generation to generation, create masterpieces of epic literature that are sung and retold for thousands of years, or establish guilds or orders that keep the adventurers' principles and dreams alive.

Reaching this point doesn't necessarily dictate the end of the campaign. These powerful characters might be called on to undertake grand adventures on the cosmic stage. And as a result of these adventures, their capabilities can continue to evolve. Characters gain no more levels at this point, but they can still advance in meaningful ways and continue performing epic deeds that resound throughout the multiverse. Chapter 7 details epic boons you can use as rewards for these characters to maintain a sense of progress.

Every second paragraph for every section is devoted to casters and their spells, except for the very early levels, where is still says "characters use 1st- and 2nd-level spells....Their magic can have a big impact in a single encounter, but it doesn't change the course of an adventure."

The mention for martials? "They start acquiring more permanent magic items (uncommon and rare ones) as well, which will serve them for the rest of their careers." or "The adventurers find rare magic items (and very rare ones) that bestow similarly powerful abilities."

And look at the 20th level section.

"A cleric might be taken up into the heavens to serve as a god's right hand.
A warlock could become a patron to other warlocks.
Perhaps a wizard unlocks the secret to immortality (or undeath) and spends eons exploring the farthest reaches of the multiverse.
A druid might become one with the land, transforming into a nature spirit of a particular place or an aspect of the wild.

Other characters could found clans or dynasties that revere the memory of their honored ancestors from generation to generation, create masterpieces of epic literature that are sung and retold for thousands of years, or establish guilds or orders that keep the adventurers' principles and dreams alive."

Take out the part that is obviously bards? And here is what you have.

Clerics! Become the Right Hand of God!
Warlocks! Become a powerful patron of other warlocks! (You know, like Asmodeus, Cthulhu, ect)
Wizards! Become immortal and explore the Multiverse!
Druids! Become one with the world!

Other people... I guess you found important families or kingdoms on earth... maybe make a guild or a knightly order... Because, you know... it's about the poeple you inspired to be great and not how cool you are. You want to be a king while the Cleric is God's Right Hand, the Wizard is exploring the infinity of reality and the Druid is literally Gaea, right? Kings are still cool.

It's just... sad. They truly just have no idea what to do with high level martials. At all.

 

[Justice and Rule]

They truly just have no idea what to do with high level martials. At all.

 

[Vaalingrade]

"My fighter stopped having fighter problems once I made them also a wizard."

So... whoosh. Whoosh is the answer.

 

[Nadan]

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Kratos is a bad example for this topic tho.
Beside he is demigod at first, in beginning of first game he is blessed(cursed) with Blades of Chaos. At end of it he use power of Hope to defeat Ares and ascend to god of war. Even in next game he lost his god power due to Zeus's scheme, he got aid from Titans.
After he massacre whole greek pantheon, destroy Greek, and lost most of his god power. He still has his super strength and regeneration. He admitted to his son that his strength isn't from his muscles but his remain god power.

Is he master of martial power? Of course he is, he use his skill to overcome other god. But he also has an arsenal of artifact level weapons and god strength enough to choke another god to death.

 

[Bluenose]

I was talking about the character in the Novels the game is based on. That character is a fighter.

Other way around. The books were based (loosely) on the game, they wouldn't have been written if it wasn't coming out.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Kratos is a bad example for this topic tho.
Beside he is demigod at first, in beginning of first game he is blessed(cursed) with Blades of Chaos. At end of it he use power of Hope to defeat Ares and ascend to god of war. Even in next game he lost his god power due to Zeus's scheme, he got aid from Titans.
After he massacre whole greek pantheon, destroy Greek, and lost most of his god power. He still has his super strength and regeneration. He admitted to his son that his strength isn't from his muscles but his remain god power.

Is he master of martial power? Of course he is, he use his skill to overcome other god. But he also has an arsenal of artifact level weapons and god strength enough to choke another god to death.

Oh absolutely, I was just making a joke about what martials should start thinking about at epic levels.